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Newbie with a question

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  • pip_s2003
    Suilaid everyone! I m new to this forum - I didn t know it existed until I tried asking a Tegwar question on elfling! Anyway, I m Rochvelleth and I m a
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 17, 2003
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      Suilaid everyone!

      I'm new to this forum - I didn't know it existed until I tried
      asking a Tegwar question on elfling! Anyway, I'm Rochvelleth and
      I'm a student at Cambridge, England. I teach Sindarin to the
      Cambridge Tolkien Society, so I'm always trying to improve my
      language. Hope I'll be talking to you all soon!

      I've also pasted on the question I asked in elfling:

      I'm just wondering about the Tengwar as I translate some Sindarin -
      how should you represent the sound written as 'y' but pronounced
      as a prolonged, fronted 'oo' sound? Is it written as if it were a
      long 'u'? Are there rules for when we count a vowel sound as long
      (e.g. I believe a ^ marks the vowel as long)? Also, I find it
      messy when writing diphthongs (partly because I don't use separate
      symbols, as on Moria Gate, but mark them over
      consonants/carriers) - are there any rules about that?

      Thank you for any help you can give me!

      Navaer,
      Rochvelleth
    • Mach Hezan
      Welcome on elfscript Rochvelleth! ... The /y/ sound is either represented with silme nuquerna in full writing Sindarin modes or with a dieresis (two points)
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 17, 2003
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        Welcome on elfscript Rochvelleth!

        > how should you represent the sound written as 'y' but pronounced
        > as a prolonged, fronted 'oo' sound? Is it written as if it were a
        > long 'u'?

        The /y/ sound is either represented with silme nuquerna in 'full writing'
        Sindarin modes or with a dieresis (two points) in the Sindarin tehtar mode.
        As well as the other vowel sounds, it can be short or long.

        > Are there rules for when we count a vowel sound as long
        > (e.g. I believe a ^ marks the vowel as long)? Also, I find it
        > messy when writing diphthongs (partly because I don't use separate
        > symbols, as on Moria Gate, but mark them over
        > consonants/carriers) - are there any rules about that?

        I'm not quite sure what kind of rules you mean. Long vowel sounds (marked
        either with an acute ´ or a circumflex ^ in the Latin transcription which
        seems to be an allophonic distinction), are all marked by an acute ´ in the
        'full writing' Sindarin modes and by putting the vowel tehta on a long
        carrier in the tehta mode.

        The published Sindarin tengwar texts by Tolkien himself express all
        diphtongs either by a combination of a tengwa with a tehta on it or by two
        tengwar.

        There's only one text where the whole diphtongs are put over the consonant
        tengwar: DTS 51, an Anglosaxon text, a very peculiar mode where the first
        (stressed) element of the diphtong is put over the preceding consonant
        tengwa and the second (unstressed) element beyond the same tengwa. But for
        the transcription of Sindarin, I'd recommend you to stay with the attested
        Sindarin modes, after all with the mode of Beleriand, or with the Sindarin
        tehtar mode (which might be of Gondorian origin).

        suilaid
        mach hezan
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        ... The tehta for y is the diaeresis ( ¨ ) (two dots). (Based on the wording of your question about diphthongs below, I m assuming that you re asking about
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 17, 2003
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          Teithant Rochvelleth:
          >how should you represent the sound written as
          >'y' but pronounced as a prolonged, fronted
          >'oo' sound? Is it written as if it were a long 'u'?

          The tehta for 'y' is the diaeresis ( ¨ ) (two dots).

          (Based on the wording of your question about diphthongs below, I'm
          assuming that you're asking about the tehta mode.)

          >Are there rules for when we count a vowel
          >sound as long (e.g. I believe a ^ marks the vowel
          >as long)?

          In Roman letters, long Sindarin vowels are indicated by an acute accent
          ( ´ ) or a circumflex accent ( ˆ ). In tengwar, long vowels are
          written as the appropriate tehtar over long carriers. Presumably long
          é, ó and ú could be written with double tehtar (as they can be in
          Quenya), but we have no attested Sindarin examples of this.

          >Also, I find it messy when writing diphthongs
          >(partly because I don't use separate symbols,
          >as on Moria Gate, but mark them over consonants
          >/carriers) - are there any rules about that?

          Okay, here are the diphthong spellings in the attested Sindarin tehta
          mode:

          ae = yanta + triple dots
          ai = anna + triple dots
          *au = úre + triple dots (deduced)
          ei = anna + accent
          oe = yanta + right curl
          ui = anna + left curl

          I hope I've helped!

          Cuio mae, Danny.
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