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[elfscript] Re: Help with some words...

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  • DDanielA@webtv.net
    ... clash with ... It is unpublished, but I was shown the autograph by Michael Endorion himself. He said that when he asked Tolkien to sign his book, JRRT
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 16, 2003
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      Teithant machhezan:
      > Danny teithant:
      > >I don't think yanta + triple dot tehta should be
      > >used; that would
      clash with
      > >his spelling in a book autograph where he uses
      > >that combination for the 'ae' in 'Michael'
      > >(The autograph was for Michael Endorion).
      >Oh, that's new to me, very thrilling! Can you give
      >any further information on that authograph?
      >I assume it's still unpublished.

      It is unpublished, but I was shown the autograph by Michael Endorion
      himself. He said that when he asked Tolkien to sign his book, JRRT
      remarked, "Did you know that your surname means 'son of Middle-Earth in
      Elvish?" I copied down the inscription in Michael's book:

      formen - óre + right curl / malta - extended stem hwesta + single dot
      - yanta + triple dot - lambe / silme - númen + right curl / extended
      stem ampa / malta - ando + single dot & under tilde / lambe + under dot
      / 'a' tengwa + accent / óre / thúle .
      (I trust you can decipher that!) This was followed by 'elen síla
      lúmenn' omentielmo' in Tengwar and the 'anga - rómen - rómen -
      tinco' and Tolkien's regular signature. The book was signed in the mid
      1960's.

      Cuio mae, Danny.
    • Arden R. Smith
      ... Very interesting! Note also that the same spelling is used for _ae_ in the Sindarin mode found in the third version of the King s Letter (_Sauron
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 16, 2003
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        Danny wrote:

        >It is unpublished, but I was shown the autograph by Michael Endorion
        >himself. He said that when he asked Tolkien to sign his book, JRRT
        >remarked, "Did you know that your surname means 'son of Middle-Earth in
        >Elvish?" I copied down the inscription in Michael's book:
        >
        >formen - óre + right curl / malta - extended stem hwesta + single dot
        >- yanta + triple dot - lambe / silme - númen + right curl / extended
        >stem ampa / malta - ando + single dot & under tilde / lambe + under dot
        >/ 'a' tengwa + accent / óre / thúle .
        >(I trust you can decipher that!) This was followed by 'elen síla
        >lúmenn' omentielmo' in Tengwar and the 'anga - rómen - rómen -
        >tinco' and Tolkien's regular signature. The book was signed in the mid
        >1960's.

        Very interesting! Note also that the same spelling is used for _ae_
        in the Sindarin mode found in the third version of the King's Letter
        (_Sauron Defeated_, p. 131; cf. my analysis in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 29,
        pp. 16-18). _Yanta_ is also used in the same text to represent the
        initial _i_ of _Iorhael_ and _ionnath_.

        --
        *********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
        --Elvish proverb
        *********************************************************************
      • machhezan
        ... dot - yanta + triple dot - lambe / silme - númen + right curl / extended stem ampa / malta - ando + single dot & under tilde / lambe + under dot / a
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 17, 2003
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          Danny teithant:
          > formen - óre + right curl / malta - extended stem hwesta + single
          dot - yanta + triple dot - lambe / silme - númen + right curl /
          extended stem ampa / malta - ando + single dot & under tilde / lambe +
          under dot / 'a' tengwa + accent / óre / thúle .

          **Thanks a lot for this detailed description! I wonder how many of
          these dedications are still out there, spread all over the world,
          undiscovered...

          > (I trust you can decipher that!)

          **I assume that by "'a' tengwa" you mean the 'c-shaped' 'stemless'
          calma, right?

          This sample is extraordinarely helpful for the design of an
          orthogrphic English tehtar mode, as it allows to write most vowel
          digraphs as one tehta on one tengwa! I've always been sad that there
          are so few vowel digraphs attested while Traditional English Spelling
          has so many of them. Though the one attested in the word 'dear' (with
          the 'r' missing) in DTS 10 writes the 'ea' digraph with two tehtar on
          two short carriers. Two samples, two possibilities, so seemingly the
          choice is up to each writer.

          Yet there are some hints in Tolkien's scripts that favour the one-sign
          analysis of vowel digraphs (by 'one sign' I mean also 'one sign +
          tehta'), cf. the numerous cirth that represent vowel digraphs, cf. the
          'classical' Quenya mode where yanta and uure ensure this analysis, cf.
          many texts where every single vowel digraphs is represented with one sign.

          Of course, the splitting of vowel digraphs into two signs is also
          attested, but as I see it, it's less favoured.

          So up from now, I'll suggest the following when someone asks me for an
          English orthographic tehtar mode:

          "vowel digraphs ending on -i/-y: tehta on anna
          vowel digraphs ending on -e: tehta on yanta
          vowel digraphs ending on -a: teha on stemless calma
          vowel digraphs ending on -u/-w: tehta on vala

          "Be aware that in some appearent vowel digraphs beginnin on u-, this
          'u' belongs rather together with the preceding consonant, e.g. 'queen,
          guest, ambigue'. This 'u' should rather be represented with a
          following-w tehta (the modified left curl, kind of an inverted tilde)
          at the preceding tengwa."

          I think there are no vowel digraphs ending on -o (though I'm not
          sure). If there are, they could perhaps be represented with tehta on
          uure in analogy to yanta for -e, but this is not attested.

          suilaid
          mach hezan
        • Florian Dombach
          ... lambe + ... Very interesting indeed! But would you, Danny, mind to tell us how Tolkien wrote the Quenya- part in this very case? Is it the late Quenya-mode
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 22, 2003
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            > > formen - óre + right curl / malta - extended stem hwesta + single
            > dot - yanta + triple dot - lambe / silme - númen + right curl /
            > extended stem ampa / malta - ando + single dot & under tilde /
            lambe +
            > under dot / 'a' tengwa + accent / óre / thúle .
            >
            > **Thanks a lot for this detailed description! I wonder how many of
            > these dedications are still out there, spread all over the world,
            > undiscovered...

            Very interesting indeed!
            But would you, Danny, mind to tell us how Tolkien wrote the Quenya-
            part in this very case? Is it the late Quenya-mode of "Namaarie" or
            again what I think to be the "general use" (described at the "Howlett
            Rivendell Inscription" and IMHO used for the "Return of the King
            Jacket" and the "Ridley Dedication").

            Meneke suili,
            Lothenon
          • hisilome
            ... Endorion himself. He said that when he asked Tolkien to sign his book, JRRT remarked, Did you know that your surname means son of Middle-Earth in
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 31, 2004
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              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
              > Teithant machhezan:
              > > Danny teithant:

              > It is unpublished, but I was shown the autograph by Michael
              Endorion> himself. He said that when he asked Tolkien to sign his
              book, JRRT remarked, "Did you know that your surname means 'son of
              Middle-Earth in Elvish?"

              Did he really? I'm just curious why "Son of Middle-earth" would have
              genitive plural instead of singular (*Endoro/*Endoreo), or is
              Middle-earth somehow to be considered a plural noun?
              Any rationalization?

              Hisilome
            • Arden R. Smith
              ... This _-ion_ is not the genitive plural suffix. It s the patronymic suffix, derived from YÔ, YON- son in the Etymologies.
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 31, 2004
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                On Oct 31, 2004, at 8:40 PM, hisilome wrote:

                > Did he really? I'm just curious why "Son of Middle-earth" would have
                > genitive plural instead of singular (*Endoro/*Endoreo), or is
                > Middle-earth somehow to be considered a plural noun?
                > Any rationalization?

                This _-ion_ is not the genitive plural suffix. It's the patronymic
                suffix, derived from YÔ, YON- 'son' in the Etymologies.

                ***************************************************
                Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

                Perilme metto aimaktur perperienta.
                --Elvish proverb

                ***************************************************
              • Dave
                ... Thanks, that also explains the son in the phrase... Hisilome [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  Arden R. Smith wrote:

                  >
                  > On Oct 31, 2004, at 8:40 PM, hisilome wrote:
                  >
                  > > Did he really? I'm just curious why "Son of Middle-earth" would have
                  > > genitive plural instead of singular (*Endoro/*Endoreo), or is
                  > > Middle-earth somehow to be considered a plural noun?
                  > > Any rationalization?
                  >
                  > This _-ion_ is not the genitive plural suffix. It's the patronymic
                  > suffix, derived from YÔ, YON- 'son' in the Etymologies.


                  Thanks, that also explains the "son" in the phrase...

                  Hisilome




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