Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

help?

Expand Messages
  • Dave
    Hullo, I m new to this site... I was wondering if someone can help me. I want to get a tattoo of my daughter s name in elvish, pereferably in tengwar text. I
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 16, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Hullo, I'm new to this site...

      I was wondering if someone can help me. I want to get a tattoo
      of
      my daughter's name in elvish, pereferably in tengwar text. I want
      it done right since, well, i only get one chance ;)

      Her name : Caitlin Sage

      thank you
      -Dave
    • Chris Ruzin
      ... I¹ve posted two different ways to write your daughters name using Tengwar. You can see them here: http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage.gif Can
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 16, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        On 8/16/03 3:06 PM, "Dave" <lusiphur_malache@...> wrote:

        > Hullo, I'm new to this site...
        >
        > I was wondering if someone can help me. I want to get a tattoo
        > of
        > my daughter's name in elvish, pereferably in tengwar text. I want
        > it done right since, well, i only get one chance ;)
        >
        > Her name : Caitlin Sage
        >
        > thank you
        > -Dave

        I¹ve posted two different ways to write your daughters name using Tengwar.
        You can see them here:

        http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage.gif

        Can others see them and let me know what needs to be corrected, if anything?
        If there are changes, I¹ll make them, and keep reuploading the picture until
        we get it right.

        The top version is more of a letter-for-letter way of writing the name. The
        bottom one is more of a phonetic way of writing the name.
        --
        Chris Ruzin
        www.chrisruzin.net



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mach Hezan
        ... The upper variant is good, though perhaps the digraph could be represented with the a-tehta on anna, but in an orthographic transcription of his own
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 17, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          > > Her name : Caitlin Sage
          > I've posted two different ways to write your daughters name using Tengwar.
          > You can see them here:
          >
          > http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage.gif
          >
          > Can others see them and let me know what needs to be corrected, if anything?

          The upper variant is good, though perhaps the digraph <ai> could be
          represented with the a-tehta on anna, but in an orthographic transcription
          of his own name, Tolkien wrote the digraph of <eu> in 'Reuel' the same way,
          with two separate signs, so I think your proposition is more favourable.

          But as for the more phonetic transcription, I thought that the first
          syllable of 'Caitlin' has the same vowel sounds as in the word 'gate', but I
          don't know that for sure. Your transcription suggests the vowels of the word
          'white'. The vowels of 'gate' should be written with an acute on anna. The
          name 'Sage', if it is pronounced the same way as the word 'sage', should
          also be written with an acute on anna; the mute 'e' shouldn't be written as
          the mode is phonemic.

          The phonemic tehtar mode is only poorly attested, but still, these few
          samples (DTS 39 and 41) give enough certainty to be quite sure about the
          writing of this name that luckily doesn't have any of the sounds we only can
          guess how to write. But still, I'd rather recommend the orthographic
          variant, because it will be more widely accepted (even though I prefer the
          phonemic one).

          suilaid
          mach hezan
        • Chris Ruzin
          ... You re correct. I followed Tolkien s example of writing two separate signs. ... I ve made the corrections to the phonetic version of the name. Reload the
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 17, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            On 8/17/03 10:13 AM, "Mach Hezan" <machhezan@...> wrote:

            > The upper variant is good, though perhaps the digraph <ai> could be
            > represented with the a-tehta on anna, but in an orthographic transcription
            > of his own name, Tolkien wrote the digraph of <eu> in 'Reuel' the same way,
            > with two separate signs, so I think your proposition is more favourable.

            You're correct. I followed Tolkien's example of writing two separate signs.

            > But as for the more phonetic transcription, I thought that the first
            > syllable of 'Caitlin' has the same vowel sounds as in the word 'gate', but I
            > don't know that for sure. Your transcription suggests the vowels of the word
            > 'white'. The vowels of 'gate' should be written with an acute on anna. The
            > name 'Sage', if it is pronounced the same way as the word 'sage', should
            > also be written with an acute on anna; the mute 'e' shouldn't be written as
            > the mode is phonemic.
            >
            > The phonemic tehtar mode is only poorly attested, but still, these few
            > samples (DTS 39 and 41) give enough certainty to be quite sure about the
            > writing of this name that luckily doesn't have any of the sounds we only can
            > guess how to write. But still, I'd rather recommend the orthographic
            > variant, because it will be more widely accepted (even though I prefer the
            > phonemic one).

            I've made the corrections to the phonetic version of the name. Reload the
            picture (http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage.gif) and see if this
            better.

            Thanks,
            Chris

            --
            Chris Ruzin
            www.chrisruzin.net
          • Dave
            ... Could I possably impose upon the group, if someone could do it in cursive? Like on the ring ? I would really apreciate it. -Dave ... be ...
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              :) thanks for the help!

              Could I possably impose upon the group, if someone could do it
              in cursive? Like on the "ring"? I would really apreciate it.

              -Dave


              --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> wrote:
              > On 8/17/03 10:13 AM, "Mach Hezan" <machhezan@g...> wrote:
              >
              > > The upper variant is good, though perhaps the digraph <ai> could
              be
              > > represented with the a-tehta on anna, but in an orthographic
              transcription
              > > of his own name, Tolkien wrote the digraph of <eu> in 'Reuel'
              the same way,
              > > with two separate signs, so I think your proposition is more
              favourable.
              >
              > You're correct. I followed Tolkien's example of writing two
              separate signs.
              >
              > > But as for the more phonetic transcription, I thought that the
              first
              > > syllable of 'Caitlin' has the same vowel sounds as in the
              word 'gate', but I
              > > don't know that for sure. Your transcription suggests the vowels
              of the word
              > > 'white'. The vowels of 'gate' should be written with an acute on
              anna. The
              > > name 'Sage', if it is pronounced the same way as the
              word 'sage', should
              > > also be written with an acute on anna; the mute 'e' shouldn't be
              written as
              > > the mode is phonemic.
              > >
              > > The phonemic tehtar mode is only poorly attested, but still,
              these few
              > > samples (DTS 39 and 41) give enough certainty to be quite sure
              about the
              > > writing of this name that luckily doesn't have any of the sounds
              we only can
              > > guess how to write. But still, I'd rather recommend the
              orthographic
              > > variant, because it will be more widely accepted (even though I
              prefer the
              > > phonemic one).
              >
              > I've made the corrections to the phonetic version of the name.
              Reload the
              > picture (http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage.gif) and see
              if this
              > better.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Chris
              >
              > --
              > Chris Ruzin
              > www.chrisruzin.net
            • Chris Ruzin
              ... Which version do you want? Orthographic (the top one) or phonetic? Chris -- Chris Ruzin www.chrisruzin.net
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                On 8/20/03 3:45 AM, "Dave" <lusiphur_malache@...> wrote:

                > :) thanks for the help!
                >
                > Could I possably impose upon the group, if someone could do it
                > in cursive? Like on the "ring"? I would really apreciate it.

                Which version do you want? Orthographic (the top one) or phonetic?

                Chris

                --
                Chris Ruzin
                www.chrisruzin.net
              • Chris Ruzin
                I forgot to mention that the orthographic version is probably your better bet, since you want it to be correct. With the phonetic version, it s hard to get
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  I forgot to mention that the orthographic version is probably your better
                  bet, since you want it to be correct. With the phonetic version, it's hard
                  to get it "correct" because there's several different ways you could write
                  it, depending on how you pronounce the different parts of the name.

                  Just so you know.

                  Chris
                  --
                  Chris Ruzin
                  www.chrisruzin.net
                • Chris Ruzin
                  I ve got two things here I can t figure out. 1. How do you right gh when it has the f or ph sound? As in enough or tough ? 2. How do you right sc
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I've got two things here I can't figure out.

                    1. How do you right "gh" when it has the "f" or "ph" sound? As in "enough"
                    or "tough"?

                    2. How do you right "sc" when it has an "s" sound? As in "science" or
                    "visceral"?

                    I'm not using a phonetic mode of writing either.

                    Thanks,
                    Chris
                  • Chris Ruzin
                    I went ahead and uploaded both for you. Go to http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage_cursive.gif. Let me know if you need them larger or smaller. Chris
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I went ahead and uploaded both for you. Go to
                      http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage_cursive.gif.

                      Let me know if you need them larger or smaller.

                      Chris

                      --
                      Chris Ruzin
                      www.chrisruzin.net
                    • DDanielA@webtv.net
                      ... I agree. ... According to Tolkien, extended stem tengwar were used to represent aspirated consonants (e.g. t + h) as opposed to spirant consonants in
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 21, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Teithant Chris Ruzin:
                        >On 8/20/03 4:20 PM, "Mach Hezan" wrote:
                        > >to 1.: I'd suggest you just write all <gh> digraphs
                        > >the same way: with unque.

                        I agree.

                        >By the way, this brings up another question
                        >I have. What is the purpose of extended stems on
                        >certain tengwar?

                        According to Tolkien, extended stem tengwar were used to represent
                        aspirated consonants (e.g. t + h) as opposed to spirant consonants in
                        Feanor's original arrangement of the tengwar. Aspirates were needed in
                        Old Quenya, but not needed in the languages of the Third Age. The
                        extended stem tengwar were later used as decorative variants of tyeller
                        3 and 4. This is seen in the Ring inscription where extended stem aha
                        and unque are used as ornamental tengwar for 'sh' and 'gh'.

                        >I know Tolkien used an extended thúle for 'the'

                        No. He used extended stem anto for 'the'.

                        >Since I've only recently started learning all this,
                        >which Tengwar have an extended stem, and when
                        >should I use them?

                        Rarely. My recommendation would be to use the extended stem
                        abbreviations for 'the', 'of' and 'of the', and the extended stem
                        varieties of aha for 'ch' = 'k' (as in your first name) and 'ph' = 'f'.

                        > >to 2.: The attested transcriptions of <s> are written
                        > >with silme, the attested transcriptions of <c>
                        > >when pronounced /s/ are written wich silme
                        > >nuquerna. I have no better suggestion.
                        >Hmm... Silme - silme nuquerna looks very odd
                        >when written out.

                        It's how I do it as well. There are a couple alternatives, but I'm not
                        real thrilled with either of them. If you use silme and silme nuquerna
                        indiscriminately for both 's' and soft 'c', the doubling tehta under
                        silme could be used. The problem here is that 'sc' occurs intially much
                        of the time, and a double initial vowel strikes me as odd. It reminds me
                        too much of the Grelvish word 'lle'. The other alternative is to use the
                        'sc' ligature of silme / aha from the Edwin Lowdham manuscripts, but I'd
                        prefer not to drag a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon ligature into modern
                        English. Silme followed by silme nuquerna is the best I can suggest.

                        Cuio mae, Danny.
                      • Chris Ruzin
                        ... Thanks for this information. I haven t read this anywhere. It s not in the PDFs I ve been learning from (which are otherwise excellent). ... Oops. Shows
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 21, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 8/21/03 5:15 PM, "DDanielA@..." <DDanielA@...> wrote:

                          > According to Tolkien, extended stem tengwar were used to represent
                          > aspirated consonants (e.g. t + h) as opposed to spirant consonants in
                          > Feanor's original arrangement of the tengwar. Aspirates were needed in
                          > Old Quenya, but not needed in the languages of the Third Age. The
                          > extended stem tengwar were later used as decorative variants of tyeller
                          > 3 and 4. This is seen in the Ring inscription where extended stem aha
                          > and unque are used as ornamental tengwar for 'sh' and 'gh'.

                          Thanks for this information. I haven't read this anywhere. It's not in the
                          PDFs I've been learning from (which are otherwise excellent).

                          > No. He used extended stem anto for 'the'.

                          Oops. Shows how little I know so far. I'll get there though!

                          >> Hmm... Silme - silme nuquerna looks very odd
                          >> when written out.
                          >
                          > It's how I do it as well. There are a couple alternatives, but I'm not
                          > real thrilled with either of them. If you use silme and silme nuquerna
                          > indiscriminately for both 's' and soft 'c', the doubling tehta under
                          > silme could be used. The problem here is that 'sc' occurs intially much
                          > of the time, and a double initial vowel strikes me as odd. It reminds me
                          > too much of the Grelvish word 'lle'. The other alternative is to use the
                          > 'sc' ligature of silme / aha from the Edwin Lowdham manuscripts, but I'd
                          > prefer not to drag a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon ligature into modern
                          > English. Silme followed by silme nuquerna is the best I can suggest.

                          Well, two people have suggested it now, so I will use it. It will take a
                          little while before it looks normal though.

                          Thanks,
                          Chris

                          --
                          Chris Ruzin
                          www.chrisruzin.net
                        • Dave
                          ... Woh! Thank you! I really apreciate it! -Dave
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 21, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Chris Ruzin <chris@m...> wrote:
                            > I went ahead and uploaded both for you. Go to
                            > http://www.chrisruzin.net/test/caitlin_sage_cursive.gif.
                            >
                            > Let me know if you need them larger or smaller.
                            >
                            > Chris
                            >
                            > --
                            > Chris Ruzin
                            > www.chrisruzin.net


                            Woh! Thank you! I really apreciate it!

                            -Dave
                          • BP Jonsson
                            ... I sometimes use Quesse with a double dot below for _c_ = /s/ and Harma with a double dot below for _sc_ = /s/. /BP 8^) -- B.Philip Jonsson
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 23, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 12:49 22.8.2003 +0000, elfscript@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                              >
                              > > >to 2.: The attested transcriptions of <s> are written
                              > > >with silme, the attested transcriptions of <c>
                              > > >when pronounced /s/ are written wich silme
                              > > >nuquerna. I have no better suggestion.
                              > >Hmm... Silme - silme nuquerna looks very odd
                              > >when written out.
                              >
                              >It's how I do it as well. There are a couple alternatives, but I'm not
                              >real thrilled with either of them. If you use silme and silme nuquerna
                              >indiscriminately for both 's' and soft 'c', the doubling tehta under
                              >silme could be used. The problem here is that 'sc' occurs intially much
                              >of the time, and a double initial vowel strikes me as odd. It reminds me
                              >too much of the Grelvish word 'lle'. The other alternative is to use the
                              >'sc' ligature of silme / aha from the Edwin Lowdham manuscripts, but I'd
                              >prefer not to drag a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon ligature into modern
                              >English. Silme followed by silme nuquerna is the best I can suggest.
                              >
                              >Cuio mae, Danny.

                              I sometimes use Quesse with a double dot below for _c_ = /s/
                              and Harma with a double dot below for _sc_ = /s/.

                              /BP 8^)
                              --
                              B.Philip Jonsson mailto:melrochX@... (delete X)
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~__
                              A h-ammen ledin i phith! \ \
                              __ ____ ____ _____________ ____ __ __ __ / /
                              \ \/___ \\__ \ /___ _____/\ \\__ \\ \ \ \\ \ / /
                              / / / / / \ / /Melroch\ \_/ // / / // / / /
                              / /___/ /_ / /\ \ / /Gaestan ~\_ // /__/ // /__/ /
                              /_________//_/ \_\/ /Eowine __ / / \___/\_\\___/\_\
                              Gwaedhvenn Angeliniel\ \______/ /a/ /_h-adar Merthol naun
                              ~~~~~~~~~Kuinondil~~~\________/~~\__/~~~Noolendur~~~~~~
                              || Lenda lenda pellalenda pellatellenda kuivie aiya! ||
                              "A coincidence, as we say in Middle-Earth" (JRR Tolkien)


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.