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Help with some words...

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  • Chris Ruzin
    I need some help with some words here. I m writing them in English Original mode. For a silent b , as in womb or tomb , would you use Umbar with an
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 16 11:54 AM
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      I need some help with some words here. I'm writing them in English Original
      mode.

      For a silent 'b', as in 'womb' or 'tomb', would you use Umbar with an
      over-bar? I would imagine so, but I'm not sure.

      What about a silent 'u', as in 'guild'? Would I use an under-dot or nothing
      at all?

      For a possessive word like 'Tom's', would you use any special marks for the
      apostrophe and use Silma, or just use an s-curl like a plural and ignore the
      apostrophe?

      Thanks,
      Chris
      --
      Chris Ruzin
      www.chrisruzin.net
    • machhezan
      ... Tolkien used vala as consonantal w and in the combinations ou and ow ; IMHO there is no reason to suspect that he wouldn t treat anna the same way. I
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 16 12:48 PM
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        Danny teithant:
        > However, I disagree with him concerning anna as 'y' in 'away'.
        Tolkien used vala as consonantal 'w' and in the combinations 'ou' and
        'ow'; IMHO there is no reason to suspect that he wouldn't treat anna
        the same way. I don't think we have an example by Tolkien of 'ai/ay'
        in an English tehta mode.

        **A very good point, though I'd add that yanta and uure might still be
        used the same way they're used in the 'classical' Quenya mode, but
        only in an English mode that places the tehtar on the preceding
        tengwa, cf. DTS 41.

        > I don't think yanta + triple dot tehta should be used; that would
        clash with his spelling in a book autograph where he uses that
        combination for the 'ae' in 'Michael' (The autograph was for Michael
        Endorion).

        Oh, that's new to me, very thrilling! Can you give any further
        information on that authograph? I assume it's still unpublished.

        Chris Ruzin teithant:
        > I need some help with some words here. I'm writing them in English
        Original mode.

        **I don't think 'Original mode' is a good name. I haven't any good
        suggestion either. I'd perhaps call it a mode based on the Title Page
        inscription, or just an orthographic tehtar mode.

        > For a silent 'b', as in 'womb' or 'tomb', would you use Umbar with
        an over-bar? I would imagine so, but I'm not sure.

        **So would imagine I.

        > What about a silent 'u', as in 'guild'? Would I use an under-dot or
        nothing at all?

        **I'd suggest to represent it the w-tehta, as in 'twenty, quiet'. The
        Sindarin mode of DTS 49 shows this tehtar over the (preceding) tengwa,
        even though normal vowel tehtar are put over the following tehta. But
        still I don't like doing this, I fool, I'd better like it to be put
        under the tengwa, like the tehta for a following consonantal 'y' in
        the 'classical' Quenya mode.

        > For a possessive word like 'Tom's', would you use any special marks
        for the
        apostrophe and use Silma, or just use an s-curl like a plural and
        ignore the
        apostrophe?

        The apostrophe seems to be ignored at least in before this genitive-s.
        The only attested apostrophe I know of is in DTS 16 in "in'er" which
        stands for "in her".

        suilaid
        mach
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        ... Right. ... I was surprised to see ea so represented. I still tend to write it with two separate tehtar as in the Brogan Christmas Greeting ...when I
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 17 4:39 PM
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          Teithant machhezan:
          > **I assume that by "'a' tengwa" you mean the
          >'c-shaped' 'stemless' calma, right?

          Right.

          >This sample is extraordinarely helpful for the design
          >of an orthogrphic English tehtar mode, as it allows
          >to write most vowel digraphs as one tehta on
          >one tengwa!

          I was surprised to see 'ea' so represented. I still tend to write it
          with two separate tehtar as in the Brogan Christmas Greeting ...when I
          write English in a tehta mode, that is. I more commonly use the KL full
          writing mode.

          > Though the one attested in the word 'dear' in
          >DTS 10 writes the 'ea' digraph with two tehtar on
          >two short carriers.

          Yeah, that one!

          >"vowel digraphs ending on -i/-y: tehta on anna vowel
          >digraphs ending on -e: tehta on yanta vowel
          >digraphs ending on -a: teha on stemless calma vowel
          >digraphs ending on -u/-w: tehta on vala
          "Be aware
          >that in some appearent vowel digraphs beginnin on
          >u-, this 'u' belongs rather together with the
          >preceding consonant, e.g. 'queen, guest, ambigue'.
          >This 'u' should rather be represented with a
          >following-w tehta (the modified left curl, kind of an
          >inverted tilde) at the preceding tengwa."

          I agree.

          >I think there are no vowel digraphs ending on
          >-o (though I'm not sure).

          One comes to mind: the 'eo' in 'people'.

          >If there are, they could perhaps be represented
          >with tehta on uure in analogy to yanta for -e, but this
          >is not attested.

          Mmm ... I wouldn't. To my mind, úre is too associated with 'u' and 'w'
          to suggest the 'o' element of a digraph. Maybe that's just me.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • John Cowan
          ... Sometimes pronounced as in George , where the e is really indicating that the preceding g is fricative. The other, and very important, digraph in -o
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 17 5:38 PM
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            DDanielA@... scripsit:

            > >I think there are no vowel digraphs ending on
            > >-o (though I'm not sure).
            >
            > One comes to mind: the 'eo' in 'people'.

            Sometimes pronounced as in "George", where the "e" is really indicating
            that the preceding "g" is fricative.

            The other, and very important, digraph in -o is of course "oo".

            > Mmm ... I wouldn't. To my mind, úre is too associated with 'u' and 'w'
            > to suggest the 'o' element of a digraph. Maybe that's just me.

            In Hebrew, the letter "vav" can represent /w/, /u/, /o/, or even /v/.

            Hebrew writing is essentially very close to Tengwar, except that normally
            only the tengwar (in the sense "consonant letters") are used. There is
            a full system of tehtar, and while no full mode exists, certain tengwar
            are recycled as vowel letters and as the short carrier. (Yiddish adopted
            a full mode as its standard writing system.)

            In particular, if the tengwa "vav" (ancestrally "w") has an o-tehta on it,
            then it can be read /vo/ or just /o/, depending on whether the the
            vav is functioning as a consonant or a vowel. If there's a dot in the
            middle of it, it typically means the vav is a /u/, but can also on
            rare occasions indicate that the vav is /vv/.

            --
            Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan
            Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker jcowan@...
            saying "No information items inside". http://www.reutershealth.com
            --Eve Maler http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
          • Mach Hezan
            ... I had already begun a reply where I wanted to point out that this e might be left away (as well as the u in guest, guild ) since the tengwar offer the
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 19 1:50 PM
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              John Cowan imaelavit:
              > Sometimes pronounced as in "George", where the "e" is really indicating
              > that the preceding "g" is fricative.

              I had already begun a reply where I wanted to point out that this 'e' might
              be left away (as well as the 'u' in 'guest, guild') since the tengwar offer
              the choice between anga and ungwe for a transcription of the latin/roman
              letter <g>, according to its pronunciation. But then I checked again the
              attested samples and found that the letter <g> is always rendered with
              ungwe, and anga represents always the letter <j>. That surprised me, because
              I had been quite convinced of this assumption which turns out to be an
              invention. Or have I overlooked any sample where the letter <g> is
              transcribed with anga?

              Anyway, here another intent for a one-sign transcription of vowel digraphs,
              taking into account your replies:

              "-i/y: anna
              -e: yanta; but <ee> with a doubled acute
              -a: stemless calma
              -o: uure; but <oo> with a doubled right-curl
              -u/w: vala

              "Note that in some cases, an <u> or an <e> belongs rather together with the
              preceding consonant letter. Therefore, they should be transcribed together
              with that letter. For this <u>, use the inverted tilde above (following-w
              sign), for this <e> use the single point below.

              "Note that in some cases, the two vowel letters can be analysed as belonging
              to different syllables. Then, of course, the one-sign transcription isn't
              adequate. E.g. 'client, brilliant, really'. For historical reasons, I'd also
              suggest to handle words such as 'special' and words such as 'ladies,
              replies, lie' like this."

              suilaid
              mach hezan
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              ... short carrier + acute accent - lambe + acute accent - númen / silme + double dots - lambe + circumflex accent / lambe + double left curl - malta + acute
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 22 9:12 AM
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                Teithant Lothenon:
                >But would you, Danny, mind to tell us how Tolkien
                >wrote the Quenya- part in this very case?

                short carrier + acute accent - lambe + acute accent - númen / silme +
                double dots - lambe + circumflex accent / lambe + double left curl -
                malta + acute accent - númen + under bar / short carrier + right curl
                - malta + acute accent - anto + single over-dot - short carrier + acute
                accent - lambe - malta + right curl.

                Cuio mae, Danny.
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