Help with some words...
- I need some help with some words here. I'm writing them in English Original
For a silent 'b', as in 'womb' or 'tomb', would you use Umbar with an
over-bar? I would imagine so, but I'm not sure.
What about a silent 'u', as in 'guild'? Would I use an under-dot or nothing
For a possessive word like 'Tom's', would you use any special marks for the
apostrophe and use Silma, or just use an s-curl like a plural and ignore the
- Danny teithant:
> However, I disagree with him concerning anna as 'y' in 'away'.Tolkien used vala as consonantal 'w' and in the combinations 'ou' and
'ow'; IMHO there is no reason to suspect that he wouldn't treat anna
the same way. I don't think we have an example by Tolkien of 'ai/ay'
in an English tehta mode.
**A very good point, though I'd add that yanta and uure might still be
used the same way they're used in the 'classical' Quenya mode, but
only in an English mode that places the tehtar on the preceding
tengwa, cf. DTS 41.
> I don't think yanta + triple dot tehta should be used; that wouldclash with his spelling in a book autograph where he uses that
combination for the 'ae' in 'Michael' (The autograph was for Michael
Oh, that's new to me, very thrilling! Can you give any further
information on that authograph? I assume it's still unpublished.
Chris Ruzin teithant:
> I need some help with some words here. I'm writing them in EnglishOriginal mode.
**I don't think 'Original mode' is a good name. I haven't any good
suggestion either. I'd perhaps call it a mode based on the Title Page
inscription, or just an orthographic tehtar mode.
> For a silent 'b', as in 'womb' or 'tomb', would you use Umbar withan over-bar? I would imagine so, but I'm not sure.
**So would imagine I.
> What about a silent 'u', as in 'guild'? Would I use an under-dot ornothing at all?
**I'd suggest to represent it the w-tehta, as in 'twenty, quiet'. The
Sindarin mode of DTS 49 shows this tehtar over the (preceding) tengwa,
even though normal vowel tehtar are put over the following tehta. But
still I don't like doing this, I fool, I'd better like it to be put
under the tengwa, like the tehta for a following consonantal 'y' in
the 'classical' Quenya mode.
> For a possessive word like 'Tom's', would you use any special marksfor the
apostrophe and use Silma, or just use an s-curl like a plural and
The apostrophe seems to be ignored at least in before this genitive-s.
The only attested apostrophe I know of is in DTS 16 in "in'er" which
stands for "in her".
- Teithant machhezan:
> **I assume that by "'a' tengwa" you mean theRight.
>'c-shaped' 'stemless' calma, right?
>This sample is extraordinarely helpful for the designI was surprised to see 'ea' so represented. I still tend to write it
>of an orthogrphic English tehtar mode, as it allows
>to write most vowel digraphs as one tehta on
with two separate tehtar as in the Brogan Christmas Greeting ...when I
write English in a tehta mode, that is. I more commonly use the KL full
> Though the one attested in the word 'dear' inYeah, that one!
>DTS 10 writes the 'ea' digraph with two tehtar on
>two short carriers.
>"vowel digraphs ending on -i/-y: tehta on anna vowel"Be aware
>digraphs ending on -e: tehta on yanta vowel
>digraphs ending on -a: teha on stemless calma vowel
>digraphs ending on -u/-w: tehta on vala
>that in some appearent vowel digraphs beginnin onI agree.
>u-, this 'u' belongs rather together with the
>preceding consonant, e.g. 'queen, guest, ambigue'.
>This 'u' should rather be represented with a
>following-w tehta (the modified left curl, kind of an
>inverted tilde) at the preceding tengwa."
>I think there are no vowel digraphs ending onOne comes to mind: the 'eo' in 'people'.
>-o (though I'm not sure).
>If there are, they could perhaps be representedMmm ... I wouldn't. To my mind, úre is too associated with 'u' and 'w'
>with tehta on uure in analogy to yanta for -e, but this
>is not attested.
to suggest the 'o' element of a digraph. Maybe that's just me.
Cuio mae, Danny.
- DDanielA@... scripsit:
> >I think there are no vowel digraphs ending onSometimes pronounced as in "George", where the "e" is really indicating
> >-o (though I'm not sure).
> One comes to mind: the 'eo' in 'people'.
that the preceding "g" is fricative.
The other, and very important, digraph in -o is of course "oo".
> Mmm ... I wouldn't. To my mind, úre is too associated with 'u' and 'w'In Hebrew, the letter "vav" can represent /w/, /u/, /o/, or even /v/.
> to suggest the 'o' element of a digraph. Maybe that's just me.
Hebrew writing is essentially very close to Tengwar, except that normally
only the tengwar (in the sense "consonant letters") are used. There is
a full system of tehtar, and while no full mode exists, certain tengwar
are recycled as vowel letters and as the short carrier. (Yiddish adopted
a full mode as its standard writing system.)
In particular, if the tengwa "vav" (ancestrally "w") has an o-tehta on it,
then it can be read /vo/ or just /o/, depending on whether the the
vav is functioning as a consonant or a vowel. If there's a dot in the
middle of it, it typically means the vav is a /u/, but can also on
rare occasions indicate that the vav is /vv/.
Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan
Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker jcowan@...
saying "No information items inside". http://www.reutershealth.com
--Eve Maler http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
- John Cowan imaelavit:
> Sometimes pronounced as in "George", where the "e" is really indicatingI had already begun a reply where I wanted to point out that this 'e' might
> that the preceding "g" is fricative.
be left away (as well as the 'u' in 'guest, guild') since the tengwar offer
the choice between anga and ungwe for a transcription of the latin/roman
letter <g>, according to its pronunciation. But then I checked again the
attested samples and found that the letter <g> is always rendered with
ungwe, and anga represents always the letter <j>. That surprised me, because
I had been quite convinced of this assumption which turns out to be an
invention. Or have I overlooked any sample where the letter <g> is
transcribed with anga?
Anyway, here another intent for a one-sign transcription of vowel digraphs,
taking into account your replies:
-e: yanta; but <ee> with a doubled acute
-a: stemless calma
-o: uure; but <oo> with a doubled right-curl
"Note that in some cases, an <u> or an <e> belongs rather together with the
preceding consonant letter. Therefore, they should be transcribed together
with that letter. For this <u>, use the inverted tilde above (following-w
sign), for this <e> use the single point below.
"Note that in some cases, the two vowel letters can be analysed as belonging
to different syllables. Then, of course, the one-sign transcription isn't
adequate. E.g. 'client, brilliant, really'. For historical reasons, I'd also
suggest to handle words such as 'special' and words such as 'ladies,
replies, lie' like this."
- Teithant Lothenon:
>But would you, Danny, mind to tell us how Tolkienshort carrier + acute accent - lambe + acute accent - númen / silme +
>wrote the Quenya- part in this very case?
double dots - lambe + circumflex accent / lambe + double left curl -
malta + acute accent - númen + under bar / short carrier + right curl
- malta + acute accent - anto + single over-dot - short carrier + acute
accent - lambe - malta + right curl.
Cuio mae, Danny.