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Tengwar

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  • Michael Everson
    OK, folks, the draft is available at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 13 8:29 AM
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      OK, folks, the draft is available at
      http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf

      It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

      Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:

      1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
      member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
      many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
      proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
      and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
      was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
      figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
      and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

      2. Do not worry about the order of the characters in the table right now.
      Ordering is irrelevant to the UCS character set encoding, and we can settle
      on the aesthetics of the table layout LATER.

      3. Do not worry too much about the character names right now. We do need to
      discuss them and settle on good ones, but they're less important than Rule
      4.

      4. We need to determine whether the character set is complete or not. Are
      there characters missing? Are there characters which are duplicates of each
      other and should be unified? Are there characters which are unified and
      should be differentiated? Do we have citations for EACH character we encode?

      Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
      15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
      Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
      27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
    • Robert Brady
      ... I m not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that the underlying
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 13 12:01 PM
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        On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

        > OK, folks, the draft is available at
        > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf
        >
        > It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

        I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
        font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
        the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
        to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
        same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
        words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

        This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
        represent different modes in plaintext.

        apart from that...

        xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :

        "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
        /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
        was like an undotted i."


        xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
        Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.

        I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

        --
        Robert
        "Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other
        nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on
        indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998.
      • Michael Everson
        ... You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E nelde , N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I neltildi and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N SILMARILLION. But Sindarin would be
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 14 5:02 AM
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          Ar 20:01 +0100 2000-04-13, scríobh Robert Brady:

          >I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
          >font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
          >the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
          >to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
          >same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
          >words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

          You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E 'nelde',
          N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I 'neltildi' and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N 'SILMARILLION. But
          Sindarin would be incorrectly represented: N-L-E-D-E 'neled', NLEThLI
          'nelthil', and S-L-I-V-R-A-L~-I-X-I-R-O 'SILMARILLION'.

          >This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
          >represent different modes in plaintext.

          Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
          you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
          get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:

          Quenya N´LD´ 'nelde', N´LT·Ld· 'neltildi'
          Sindarin N´L´D 'neled', N´LTh·L 'nelThil'

          Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
          to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

          And the alternative would be expensive inputting software to meet Sindarin
          or English expectations. This is what you'd have to do to meet the user's
          "underlying spelling" expectations, which they probably want to use on
          inputting because it is lots easier.

          >apart from that...
          >
          > xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :
          >
          > "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
          > /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
          > was like an undotted i."

          Oops, that's an error in the names list. xx2D isn't the short charrier, it
          is halla. The short carrier is xx2E. So I don't have the attestation for
          halla yet.

          > xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
          > Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.
          >
          >I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

          Apparently it was Quettar 13 and 14, but I do not have these. (I need them.)

          Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
          15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
          Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
          27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
        • Robert Brady
          ... Ok. That convinces me. I m just concerned about the complexity, as it is not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so it
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 14 10:56 AM
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            On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

            > Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
            > you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
            > get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:
            >
            > Quenya N�LD� 'nelde', N�LT�Ld� 'neltildi'
            > Sindarin N�L�D 'neled', N�LTh�L 'nelThil'
            >
            > Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
            > to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

            Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
            not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
            it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
            operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

            Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
            approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

            --
            Robert
          • Michael Everson
            ... It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won t really get encoded until we have in implementation font. I m concerned about whether I got the Old
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 14 11:06 AM
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              Ar 18:56 +0100 2000-04-14, scríobh Robert Brady:

              >Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
              >not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
              >it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
              >operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

              It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won't really get encoded
              until we have in implementation font. I'm concerned about whether I got the
              Old English vowel encoding right.

              >Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
              >approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

              While they hiss and spit at Klingon, the feeling does seem to be that
              Tengwar and Cirth are legitimate scripts for encoding. (Not that this was a
              reason I proposed Klingon along with Tengwar and Cirth, oh my no....)

              Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
              15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
              Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
              27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
            • John Cowan
              ... They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand. What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal. -- Schlingt dreifach
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 14 2:59 PM
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                Robert Brady wrote:

                > Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                > approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand.
                What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal.

                --

                Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
              • Abrigon
                http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/ http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 15, 2001
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                  http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/

                  http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html

                  For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                  Tengwar..

                  I do know that many of the lingos of India, and SE and to a degree NE
                  of India are based on fully or partially on the script that Sanskrit
                  used.. Some are harder to tell the origin, especially by the time you
                  get to Java and their script is very curvy.

                  Mike
                • Nicole Mate
                  Hi, I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 13, 2004
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                    Hi,
                    I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each transcribed into Tengwar (and actually, if anyone has time, could you check the translations I have - I am almost positive they're right, but you never know). I have tried in so many different places to transcribe these or download a font, but nothing I am doing seems to work. If any of you can help me, or tell me what I can do to do it myself, I would be incredibly grateful. Thanks! The phrase is �see my pain�, here are the translations I already have.
                    Quenya - � cen� nwalmenya or c�n� naicenya
                    Sindarian - ceno naeg n�n. or ceno i naeg n�n.

                    Once again, Thank you!


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