Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

IMHO...

Expand Messages
  • DDanielA@webtv.net
    These are the words I believe should begin with aha : hanu = male haran = king harma = treasure harwë = treasury harya- = to possess haryon = pribce hellë =
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 16, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      These are the words I believe should begin with 'aha':
      hanu = male
      haran = king
      harma = treasure
      harwë = treasury
      harya- = to possess
      haryon = pribce
      hellë = sky
      helwa = pale blue
      helyanwë = rainbow
      ho = from

      In other words, those derived from the back spirant [3]. (All cognate
      Sindarin words of these begin with a vowel.)

      Those with Sindarin cognates with [h] begin with 'hyarmen'.

      Yeah, we're going to disagree, but that's MY opinion. Of course, in my
      case, it doesn't make too much difference...my real interest is
      Sindarin; I don't do a whole lot of Quenya composition! And 'harma/aha'
      is not a tengwa used in the mode I most frequently use...that of the
      King's Letter! (I'm really not trying to start a war here.)

      Cuio mae, Danny.
    • gildir_1@yahoo.com
      ... Well, that depends on many things, such as if you want the tengwar spelling of quenya words to reflect etymology, or not. As Danny says, this is perhaps a
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 17, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In elfscript@y..., DDanielA@w... wrote:
        > These are the words I believe should begin with 'aha':
        > hanu = male
        > haran = king
        > harma = treasure
        > harwë = treasury
        > harya- = to possess
        > haryon = pribce
        > hellë = sky
        > helwa = pale blue
        > helyanwë = rainbow
        > ho = from
        >
        > In other words, those derived from the back spirant [3].
        > (All cognate Sindarin words of these begin with a vowel.)
        >
        > Those with Sindarin cognates with [h] begin with 'hyarmen'.
        >
        > Yeah, we're going to disagree, but that's MY opinion.
        > Of course, in my case, it doesn't make too much difference...
        > my real interest is Sindarin; I don't do a whole lot of
        > Quenya composition! And 'harma/aha' is not a tengwa used in
        > the mode I most frequently use...that of the King's Letter!
        > (I'm really not trying to start a war here.)

        Well, that depends on many things, such as if you want the
        tengwar spelling of quenya words to reflect etymology, or not.
        As Danny says, this is perhaps a matter of opinion. I prefer
        to keep it simple, and not use Aha at all. (See my guide
        "Quenya Tengwainen - Writing Quenya with Tengwar" on
        http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html. Of
        course, its aim is to show how Quenya (Tareldarin) _can_ be
        written, using a minimal set uf rules). Comments on it, and
        the new guide for Sindarin, are welcome.

        And, btw, while Harma/Aha is not used (for ch) in the tehta
        mode (King's Letter mode) for Sindarin, its counterpart
        Hwesta is.

        Suilaid!
        Gildir
      • D. Daniel Andriës
        ... y influenced by a Mannish mode...Westron or Adûnaic...as Måns pointed out), = series IV was used as the calmatéma . There is, however, most probably an
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 20, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In elfscript@y..., gildir_1@y... wrote:

          >
          > And, btw, while Harma/Aha is not used (for ch) in the tehta
          > mode (King's Letter mode) for Sindarin, its counterpart
          > Hwesta is.
          >
          > Suilaid!
          > Gildir

          I know...and 'hwesta' is what I use for 'ch' (= [x]). In this mode (probabl=
          y influenced by a Mannish mode...Westron or Adûnaic...as Måns pointed out), =
          series IV was used as the 'calmatéma'. There is, however, most probably an a=
          s-yet non-attested Sindarin tehta mode that uses series III for the velars a=
          nd leaves the first four grades of series IV unused (and probably 'nwalme' a=
          s well). This would be a Sindarin mode used by the Elves themselves rather t=
          han by the Edain in Gondor. The mode of Beleriand was apparently used the no=
          rthern regions of Middle Earth. The tehta mode could possibly have been used=
          in Eryn Galen, Lothlórien and possibly Dol Amroth, since there was a lot of=
          Elvish blood in their people. It's just a theory.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • gildir_1@yahoo.com
          ... Yes, there might exist a sindarin tehta mode different from the one used in KL-III (DTS 49), using series III for the calmatéma like the Mode of
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 23, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In elfscript@y..., "D. Daniel Andriës" <DDanielA@w...> wrote:
            > --- In elfscript@y..., gildir_1@y... wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > And, btw, while Harma/Aha is not used (for ch) in the tehta
            > > mode (King's Letter mode) for Sindarin, its counterpart
            > > Hwesta is.
            >
            > I know... and 'hwesta' is what I use for 'ch' (= [x]). In this
            > mode (probably influenced by a Mannish mode... Westron or
            > Adûnaic... as Måns pointed out), series IV was used as the
            > 'calmatéma'. There is, however, most probably an as-yet
            > non-attested Sindarin tehta mode that uses series III for
            > the velars and leaves the first four grades of series IV
            > unused (and probably 'nwalme' as well). This would be a
            > Sindarin mode used by the Elves themselves rather than
            > by the Edain in Gondor. The mode of Beleriand was apparently
            > used the northern regions of Middle Earth. The tehta mode could
            > possibly have been used in Eryn Galen, Lothlórien and possibly
            > Dol Amroth, since there was a lot of Elvish blood in their
            > people. It's just a theory.

            Yes, there might exist a sindarin tehta mode different from the
            one used in KL-III (DTS 49), using series III for the calmatéma
            like the Mode of Beleriand. But do we have any indications
            that it exists? Or do we simply associate Sindarin so much
            with the Mode of Beleriand that we presume that a tehta mode
            *must* use series III for the calmatéma?

            I'd love to see some good arguments (either for or against)
            the use of series III in a tehta mode for sindarin!

            Suilaid!
            Gildir
          • Mans Bjorkman
            ... I don t think there necessarily had to be such a mode although, of course, it is far from impossible. It would probably not be used by peoples who believed
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 23, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Gildir teithant:
              >
              > Yes, there might exist a sindarin tehta mode different from the
              > one used in KL-III (DTS 49), using series III for the calmatéma
              > like the Mode of Beleriand. But do we have any indications
              > that it exists? Or do we simply associate Sindarin so much
              > with the Mode of Beleriand that we presume that a tehta mode
              > *must* use series III for the calmatéma?
              >
              > I'd love to see some good arguments (either for or against)
              > the use of series III in a tehta mode for sindarin!

              I don't think there necessarily had to be such a mode although, of
              course, it is far from impossible. It would probably not be used by
              peoples who believed in the notion (apparently Noldorin in origin) that
              "the diacritic method of indicating vowels was inconvenient" for
              Sindarin (Vinyar Tengwar #39:8).

              Judging by its name, the mode of Beleriand was the primary choice before
              the War of Wrath that ended the First Age. Since the published samples
              suggest that the mode of Beleriand dominated in the major High-elven
              settlements of the Second and Third Age -- Imladris and Eregion -- this
              hypothetic mode would probably be found in either Mannish, Grey-elven or
              Silvan settlements, and probably not earlier than the Second Age. It
              would probably evolve more easily in areas where both the mode of
              Beleriand and the "mode of Gondor" were known and could (accidentally or
              intentionally) get mixed.

              Yours,
              Måns

              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              Okay, here s some of my reasoning. We know that there exists at least one tehta mode used to represent Sindarin, and that it was used by the Edain in Gondor,
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 23, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Okay, here's some of my reasoning. We know that there exists at least
                one tehta mode used to represent Sindarin, and that it was used by the
                Edain in Gondor, or at least in Minas Tirith. I believe that most of
                Gondor probably used a full-writing mode, but Minas Tirith, being the
                home of the Royal See, often employed an older mode for ceremonal use.
                This older mode was the tehta mode. Historically speaking, consonantal
                writing systems do not derive from full alphabetic scripts, but
                consonantal systems (like the tehta modes) often evolve into
                full-writing scripts. Tolkien himself alluded to the fact that the tehta
                modes were older than the full-writing modes. That does not mean that
                the 'mode of Minas Tirith' from KL, version III is older than the mode
                of Beleriand, but it is most probably the ancestor of version I's mode.
                So where does this tehta mode have its origin? Surely not in the mode of
                Beleriand; its treatment of simple nasals and the 'rómen/óre'
                situation seems to preclude that theory, plus, as stated before, tehta
                modes do not derive from full-writing modes. My theory is that the mode
                of Beleriand and the 'mode of Minas Tirith' both find their origins in
                the hypothetical Sindarin tehta mode, but that the mode of Beleriand
                evolved into a full-writing system much earlier than that of Gondor. I
                believe that this hypothetical mode used Series III for the velars.
                Måns pointed out to me in an elfscript post that if a choice for using
                III or IV were to be made, III is more economical. I agree. The Edain
                had the need for both a velar and a palatal series for Adûnaic, and
                they used III for the palatals and IV for the velars, and transferred
                this use to their Sindarin modes. The Grey Elves, however, had no need
                for both series. Following the Quenya practice, III was used as their
                'calmatéma'.
                I do NOT agree that the mode of Beleriand was the oldest tengwar mode
                used to write Sindarin. I have seen no evidence to support this. And,
                aside from the King's Letter, we have JRRT's assertion that Sindarin was
                written in tehta modes in App. E when he explains the placement of
                tehtar on the preceding or following tengwar. He also said that the
                tengwar had evolved into full alphabetic writing, but that the older
                tehta modes were still in use in some places. He didn't specifically
                mention Sindarin in this context, but the possibility (and probability)
                exists.
                Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject!
                Cuio mae, Danny.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.