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Tolkien-linguistic nihilism

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  • Helge K. Fauskanger
    ... I am not aware that my attitudes have changed very much in the entire time I have been active in this field (ca. 1995 -) How was I less infatuated some
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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      Edouard Kloczko wrote to me:

      > In time you have become such an infatuated person. Shame on you.

      I am not aware that my attitudes have changed very much in the entire time
      I have been active in this field (ca. 1995 -) How was I less "infatuated"
      some years ago?

      > I despise your actual work,

      I understand that; I am less certain whether you bother to actually read
      much of it to determine whether it really is that disastrously bad. A few
      weeks ago, when I announced my new article about Sindarin verbs, you
      instantly wrote to me to let me know that I thereby displayed what you
      called "moronic behaviour". I guess I still haven't figured out what is so
      moronic about publishing analyses of various features of Tolkien's
      languages (somehow I got the impression that this is exactly what
      Tolkien-linguists are supposed to do). You could at best have had time to
      glance over the article before you wrote, but I guess all you needed to
      know was that I was its author.

      When I wrote back wondering what you meant, I get a brief response
      informing me that "I do not read your e-mail." Very constructive, Ed.

      > and your present attitude!

      Over the years and up to the present, there are probably those who have
      been more than just a little annoyed by your own attitude, especially your
      persistent habit of making responses that may be politely described as
      brusque.

      > You have behave[d] in the most unbelievable way and I will fight your
      stupid ideas as much as I can

      I rest my case... But I would think that my _wordlists_, at the very least,
      are relatively "neutral" when compared to the primary sources. If I say,
      "the Quenya word for 'tree' is _alda_", will you feel obliged to disagree
      just because it is I who say this?

      Ed, sometimes I wonder if you are not the very first Tolkien-linguistic
      nihilist. Can you point to _any_ published Tolkien-linguist _anywhere_ who
      conducts his or her research in what you deem to be the proper manner? Or
      are you the only one who has got it right, in a world of morons and idiots?

      > and as long as you do not change.

      May I ask what changes you require? Maybe I should replace all of
      Ardalambion with a big sign that says "READ TOLKIEN'S BOOKS!!!!!!!!" This,
      I presume, would be your idea of an ideal Tolkien-linguistic web-site?

      - Helge Fauskanger

      P.S. to the Elfscript subscribers: I originally sent this to Ed in private.
      I got the following reply: "You really think I want to talk to you? No, I
      don't. FUCK OFF !!!" Another polite and constructive response from Mr.
      Kloczko...
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      Helge, I think we are all left to wonder what sort of person would go out of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, not incidentally, it is
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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        Helge, I think we are all left to wonder what sort of person would go
        out of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, not
        incidentally, it is _completely_ off topic), and post another's private
        words without that person's permission in doing so?

        Are you so insecure that you can't deal with private criticism without
        airing it and fishing for sympathy in a public forum?

        Did you really think this sort of behavior would reflect well on you?
      • John Cowan
        ... Those who wish to sit at the feet of the Masters and learn must first recognize that the Masters are a cranky lot. --me, back when I was moderating
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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          Carl F. Hostetter scripsit:

          > Did you really think this sort of behavior would reflect well on you?

          "Those who wish to sit at the feet of the Masters and learn must first
          recognize that the Masters are a cranky lot."
          --me, back when I was moderating Elfling, a phase of my life
          which I am very grateful has ended

          --
          John Cowan
          jcowan@...
          I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin
        • Kirsten Eivor Bekkhus
          ... But this is not the first criticism of Helge/Ardalambion from Kloczko that has occured on this list, or other lists. Fair enough to have an opinion (though
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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            Carl. F. Hostetter wrote:
            >what sort of person would go
            >out of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, >not incidentally, it is _completely_ off topic), and post >another's private words without that person's permission in >doing so?

            But this is not the first criticism of Helge/Ardalambion from Kloczko that has occured on this list, or other lists. Fair enough to have an opinion (though his wording reflects him somewhat arrogant), but it is rather annoying to ask for an explanation, as I did on his last comment of Ardalambion wordlists, and not have any answer. Criticism is pointless without reasoning - no wonder things go off-topic here.

            John Cowan:
            >"Those who wish to sit at the feet of the Masters and learn must first
            >recognize that the Masters are a cranky lot."

            Was Tolkien too?? Well, maybe there won`t be anyone that knows anything about the languages of Arda hundred years or less from now.

            Eivor

            _______________________________________
            Man tiruva fána cirya, wilwarin wilwa,
            ëar-celumessen ramainen elvië



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... Did I say it was? There is a huge difference between answering criticisms lodged in a public forum, in a public forum; and posting someone s _private_
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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              On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:06 PM, Kirsten Eivor Bekkhus wrote:

              > Carl. F. Hostetter wrote:
              >> what sort of person would go out of his way to bring a private spat
              >> to a public list (where, >not incidentally, it is _completely_ off
              >> topic), and post >another's private words without that person's
              >> permission in >doing so?
              >
              > But this is not the first criticism of Helge/Ardalambion from Kloczko
              > that has occured on this list, or other lists.

              Did I say it was?

              There is a huge difference between answering criticisms lodged in a
              public forum, in a public forum; and posting someone's _private_
              comments, without permission, to a public forum, and airing one's
              grievances.
            • Kirsten Eivor Bekkhus
              Carl.F.Hostetter wrote: ... No, I did. I have not accused you of saying anything, for that matter. ... *sigh*..Long time before today`s posting, this sad
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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                Carl.F.Hostetter wrote:
                On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 01:06 PM, Kirsten Eivor Bekkhus wrote:
                >> But this is not the first criticism of Helge/Ardalambion from >>Kloczko
                >> that has occured on this list, or other lists.

                >Did I say it was?

                No, I did. I have not accused you of saying anything, for that matter.

                >There is a huge difference between answering criticisms lodged >in a public forum, in a public forum; and posting someone's >_private_ comments, without permission, to a public forum, and >airing one's grievances.

                *sigh*..Long time before today`s posting, this sad discrepancies has been a grievance to many more. (Not that I think that`s news to you. More like, well, airing a grievance.)

                Eivor

                ______________________________
                Man tiruva fána cirya, wilwarin wilwa,
                ëar-celumessen ramainen elvië


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • andrew.belisle@comcast.net
                ... I do not think, Mr. Hostetter, that this was meant by Mr. Fauskanger to turn private comments and insults of Mr. Kloczko into a public affair. ... Posting
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 12, 2003
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                  On 7/13/03 4:37 AM, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                  > There is a huge difference between answering criticisms lodged in a
                  > public forum, in a public forum; and posting someone's _private_
                  > comments, without permission, to a public forum, and airing one's
                  > grievances.

                  I do not think, Mr. Hostetter, that this was meant by Mr. Fauskanger to turn private comments and
                  insults of Mr. Kloczko into a public affair.

                  Mr Fauskanger wrote:
                  > P.S. to the Elfscript subscribers: I originally sent this to Ed in private.
                  > I got the following reply: "You really think I want to talk to you? No, I
                  > don't. FUCK OFF !!!" Another polite and constructive response from Mr.
                  > Kloczko...

                  Posting here will should make Mr, Kloczko give Mr. Fauskanger a response, which is something he
                  should do, out of courtesy, but has chosen not to do through private e-mail judging from the
                  above response...

                  ---
                  Andrew Belisle
                  Quone modo nunc, fulve bos?
                  Manen s�, varn� yax�?
                  ---
                • laurifindil
                  ... Mister Helge F. has become an very strange person and is also sadly a liar. I never wrote to him such things. I don t so why, I would do such
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 14, 2003
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                    --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                    <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                    > Edouard Kloczko wrote to me:

                    <snip>

                    Mister Helge F. has become an very "strange" person and is also sadly
                    a liar. I never wrote to him such things. I don't so why, I would do
                    such things...I have nothing to say to him.

                    After reading his absurd post to this list I will certainly think
                    twice before meeting him in person.

                    I would like to apologise to Elfscript for his behaviour and I'm sorry
                    for writting to this list on a private topic unrelated to Tolkien.

                    Edouard Kloczko
                  • Helge K. Fauskanger
                    ... of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, not incidentally, it is _completely_ off topic), and post another s private words without that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 15, 2003
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                      Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                      > Helge, I think we are all left to wonder what sort of person would go out
                      of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, not
                      incidentally, it is _completely_ off topic), and post another's private
                      words without that person's permission in doing so?

                      Yes, Carl, we do know that you are STILL angry because David Salo publicly
                      quoted your invitation to him to come and "ogle" (your exact word)
                      unpublished Tolkien material which (judging by your subsequent behavior) is
                      actually so secret and sensitive that it should be surrounded by a level of
                      security that would make the Pentagon proud. Come on, it's been SEVEN
                      years; please move on.

                      > Did you really think this sort of behavior would reflect well on you?

                      I could ask, Do you think it reflects well on a person if he accepts other
                      people's money (in advance!) as payment for a journal which he originally
                      promised to publish every other month but which in the event turns out to
                      be published, well, barely annually? But I won't ask that, so please don't
                      feel obliged to answer or comment. Off topic, y'know...

                      However, I (as well as others I have been in contact with) do feel that
                      "Laurifindil's" behavior has gone from bad to worse in the last year or so,
                      and insofar as this sad deterioration affects this list, I feel that it is
                      not entirely off topic to briefly discuss it here. We repeatedly see
                      "Laurifindil" snapping at people, making rude and brusque replies to quite
                      innocent questions. Even his one piece of potentially good advice, the
                      endlessly repeated encouragement to "read Tolkien's books", can hardly be
                      seen as a sincere attempt to really help people when he can bring himself
                      to producing comments like "the answer to your question is in so-and-so
                      book, _but I'm not going to tell you on what page_". Nyah-nyah-nyah...

                      As for his attacks on me, I tried for the longest time to discern some
                      constructive criticism in them, or just ignore them. But when I am told in
                      public that he has nothing but contempt for my work and will do anything to
                      fight my "stupid ideas" (not further specified, of course), I would like to
                      know what he is really criticizing. When I, contacting him in private
                      asking him what his idea of proper Tolkien-linguistics really is, am
                      rewarded with little more than a "Fxxx OFF", I do feel that the people on
                      the list where he published his insults are entitled to know what is really
                      going on.

                      Many newcomers must wonder, when reading "Laurifindil's" brusque and often
                      quite unhelpful responses to some innocent question, whether they are
                      really so incompetent that they somehow _deserve_ such replies from a more
                      advanced Tolkien-linguist. Well, folks, I have been active in this field
                      for about a decade and have produced a number of Tolkien-linguistic
                      articles and analyses which are, I hope, not entirely void of value
                      (Ardalambion.com). And as you all can see, "Laurifindil" treats me just as
                      bad as you -- or worse. Nowadays, I can get little else than four-letter
                      words from him (and he isn't making things any better by subsequently
                      calling me a liar, suddenly claiming that he didn't write such things at
                      all...) So his rudeness has nothing to do with any incompetence on your
                      part, but everything to do with his own, well, style. Please don't let him
                      intimidate you.

                      His behavior is most unfortunate, for he possesses a genuine store of
                      knowledge which could benefit this list if he would share it -- as is
                      demonstrated by the fact that occasionally, he actually does. Do we dare to
                      hope that in the future, we will see more constructive answers and less
                      rude criticism presented solely for the purpose of criticizing?

                      - Helge Fauskanger
                    • laurifindil
                      ... Don t you have better things to do Helge? This ML is dedicated to the study of Tengwar, Sarati and Cirth, and should stay so. Edouard Kloczko
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 15, 2003
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                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                        <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                        > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                        >
                        <snip>

                        Don't you have better things to do Helge?

                        This ML is dedicated to the study of Tengwar, Sarati and Cirth, and
                        should stay so.

                        Edouard Kloczko
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        ... First, I didn t mention David Salo; why do you? Second, David did rather more than that: he wrote up what amounted to an unauthorized interview based on
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 15, 2003
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                          On Tuesday, July 15, 2003, at 08:04 AM, Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:

                          >> Helge, I think we are all left to wonder what sort of person would go
                          >> out of his way to bring a private spat to a public list (where, not
                          >> incidentally, it is _completely_ off topic), and post another's
                          >> private words without that person's permission in doing so?
                          >
                          > Yes, Carl, we do know that you are STILL angry because David Salo
                          > publicly quoted your invitation to him to come and "ogle" (your exact
                          > word) unpublished Tolkien material

                          First, I didn't mention David Salo; why do you? Second, David did
                          rather more than that: he wrote up what amounted to an unauthorized
                          "interview" based on his skewed and agenda-driven "perspective" on his
                          _private_ visit to my home, all without my permission or knowledge. But
                          I see that neither you nor David has any respect for, or notion of, the
                          privacy of others, simple decency, or even topicality. Third, what
                          exactly is wrong with the word "ogle"? Did I misspell it?

                          This is yet another example of Helge's inability to observe the
                          policies of Internet discussion fora, or even to stick to the topic of
                          hand. Helge's rhetorical methods include this sophisticated technique,
                          mastered by 5-year olds the world over: "Yeah? Well you're one too!"

                          > Come on, it's been SEVEN years; please move on.

                          I didn't bring it up again. You did. Who's the one who should move on?

                          >> Did you really think this sort of behavior would reflect well on you?
                          >
                          > I could ask, Do you think it reflects well on a person if he accepts
                          > other people's money (in advance!) as payment for a journal which he
                          > originally promised to publish every other month

                          I never made any such promise.

                          > but which in the event turns out to be published, well, barely
                          > annually?

                          So? No one has complained, other than you; and even then, you haven't
                          complained to me directly. You chose to resubscribe, even after the
                          publication terms had changed, so I don't see what basis you have for
                          complaint in any event, or how it is any of your business. And what
                          has this to do with anything in this discussion? You really _are_
                          _that_ insecure, aren't you?

                          > However, I (as well as others I have been in contact with) do feel
                          > that "Laurifindil's" behavior has gone from bad to worse in the last
                          > year or so, and insofar as this sad deterioration affects this list, I
                          > feel that it is
                          > not entirely off topic to briefly discuss it here.

                          To the extent that Edouard makes comments _on this list_, and to the
                          extent that such off-topic comments are tolerated, then yes, of course,
                          you are perfectly within your rights -- I would say, even entitled,
                          though you've supported denying me the same on Elfling -- to respond to
                          his comments. But you are _not_ entitled or within your rights to post
                          private communications here without the author's permission: that is a
                          clear violation of copyright, privacy, and even maturity. That is what
                          _my_ comments concern, and I reject your typical shotgun,
                          off-off-topic, and juvenile attempts to divert from what I _actually_
                          said, and what you _actually_ did.
                        • John Cowan
                          ... As I was saying, the Masters (and these three all qualify) are a cranky lot. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 15, 2003
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                            laurifindil scripsit:
                            > --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                            > <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                            > > Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                            > >
                            > <snip>
                            >
                            > Don't you have better things to do Helge?

                            As I was saying, the Masters (and these three all qualify) are a cranky lot.

                            --
                            John Cowan jcowan@... www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan
                            Assent may be registered by a signature, a handshake, or a click of a computer
                            mouse transmitted across the invisible ether of the Internet. Formality
                            is not a requisite; any sign, symbol or action, or even willful inaction,
                            as long as it is unequivocally referable to the promise, may create a contract.
                            --_Specht v. Netscape_
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