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Re: Quenya spelling question

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  • machhezan
    ... But there s the question whether you follow traditional orthography or pronunciation (which is not only a question for English, but also for Quenya). When
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
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      Gildor Inglorion teithant:
      > > vaina - wilya, yanta (bridge) + 3 dot, numen + 3
      > > dot.
      >
      > they are all right

      But there's the question whether you follow traditional orthography
      or pronunciation (which is not only a question for English, but also
      for Quenya). When following pronunciation, you should take vala, not
      wilya (I'm supposing wilya is etymologically correct, but I don't
      know it). Tolkien himself seems to have followed pronunciation. I
      don't have any documentation right now, but I remember that several
      times he's used silme where the etymology/the tradition would ask for
      thuule (suule).

      suilaid
    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      ... That is ... Remember that we have a _very_ limited knowledge ... *Sigh* ... and I would like to remind newbies that Edouard Kloczko is not the last word in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
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        Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
        >I would like to remind the newbies (the others
        >know that already :-() that the answers given by
        >Gildor looks as if the guy knew everything
        >of Quenya and Sindarin.
        That is
        >*NOT* the case, most of what Gildor presents
        >is his many, many e-mails as fact are just his
        >speculations, which most of the time are *inaccurate*
        >or plainly *false*.
        Remember that we have a _very_ limited knowledge
        >of _True_ Elvish.

        *Sigh* ... and I would like to remind newbies that Edouard Kloczko is
        not the last word in Tolkien linguistics either. It's true that we have
        limited Quenya and Sindarin corpuses, but we can often draw conclusions
        based on what is attested. While Edouard tends to think that if a word
        has not been proven to have actually been written by Tolkien's own hand
        then it must be dismissed as wrong, several hypothetical words have
        later been proven to be correct according to JRRT's unpublished works.
        Gildor has never claimed to be omniscient about the Eldarin languages.
        In fact, he has denied that claim whenever Edouard decides to start
        harping on it from time to time. The purpose of Tolkien linguistics
        lists is to discuss our understanding of Tolkien linguistics ... imagine
        that! ... and to discuss our theories. Apparently, some people prefer to
        piss and moan about non-Tolkienian extrapolations. I admire Gildor for
        his willingness to help the newbies get their start. This is IMHO a
        better approach than snapping "look it up" at people who have questions,
        assuming everyone on these lists has access to every volume of HoME, VT,
        etc. It's better to encourage than criticise.

        Cuio mae, Danny.
      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        ... Not necessarily. Tolkien himself strongly suggests that that initial w became pronounced v when he explained how wilya came to be pronounced vilya .
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
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          Teithant machhezan:
          >When following pronunciation, you should take
          >vala, not wilya

          Not necessarily. Tolkien himself strongly suggests that that initial 'w'
          became pronounced 'v' when he explained how 'wilya' came to be
          pronounced 'vilya'. We see other examples of initial w>v. Presumably
          these would be spelt with vilya as well. Quenya words that begin with
          'v' are derived from PE roots that begin with 'b' or 'w'. The
          hypothetical rule is that PE 'b' words are spelt with vala in Quenya
          while PE 'w' yields the vilya spelling.

          >Tolkien himself seems to have followed pronunciation.
          >I don't have any documentation right now, but I
          >remember that several times he's used silme where
          >the etymology/the tradition would ask for thuule
          >(suule).

          Several? I know only of the examples of 'Namárie', and there are a
          number of theories why he used silme rather than súle. The one I
          favour is that the transcription of 'Namárie' that we have is the way
          that Frodo recorded it in the Red Book. He wrote it down as he heard it.
          His knowledge of Elvish was limited, so he probably was not very
          familiar with the orthographic conventions of Quenya. Galadriel would
          have likely have used súle rather than silme in the words _hísie_
          and _sindanóriello_ had she written the lyrics down for Frodo ... and
          probably would have spelt _vanwa_ with vilya instead of vala as well!
          Just my opinion.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • machhezan
          ... But Namaarie is the only longer tengwar text in Quenya, except for DTS 55 which shows a fragment of the same text. But if DTS 55 also has silme and not
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
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            Mach Hezan wrote:
            > >Tolkien himself seems to have followed pronunciation.
            > >I don't have any documentation right now, but I
            > >remember that several times he's used silme where
            > >the etymology/the tradition would ask for thuule
            > >(suule).

            Danny answered:
            > Several? I know only of the examples of 'Namárie',

            But Namaarie is the only longer tengwar text in Quenya, except for
            DTS 55 which shows a fragment of the same text. But if DTS 55 also
            has silme and not suule, then there's no evidence that Galadriel
            would have written different from what we have in the Namaarie text.
            The DTS index says that DTS 55 "differs on many points from DTS 20 -
            Namárië", but I don't have it (and don't even know how I could get
            it). But as long as nobody tells me, I'll assume that it's also
            written with silme, not with suule. Could anybody please correct me?

            > and there are a
            > number of theories why he used silme rather than súle. The one I
            > favour is that the transcription of 'Namárie' that we have is the
            way
            > that Frodo recorded it in the Red Book. He wrote it down as he
            heard it.
            > His knowledge of Elvish was limited, so he probably was not very
            > familiar with the orthographic conventions of Quenya. Galadriel
            would
            > have likely have used súle rather than silme in the words _hísie_
            > and _sindanóriello_ had she written the lyrics down for Frodo ...
            and
            > probably would have spelt _vanwa_ with vilya instead of vala as
            well!
            > Just my opinion.

            That sounds very reasonable, but the choice remains: You can spell
            Quenya the way Frodo did (following pronunciation) or the way
            Galadriel would have done (following etymology).

            Maybe Frodo would have written the same text in a different way:
            Frodo spoke Westron, and therefore he's more likely to have written
            Quenya in a similar way Westron was written. And such 'general use'
            Quenya is attested in at least two different samples, in Idril's
            Device Title (DTS 42), and in the Ridley dedication (DTS 59). If it's
            written by Frodo, then he knew a lot about how Quenya was to write,
            as the mode of DTS 19 and 20 Namaarie definitly is the 'classical'
            Quenya mode.

            suilaid
            mach
          • calya_estel
            ... questions, ... HoME, VT, ... Thank you for articulating the reason why I come back time & time again to ask questions of this group, because of a select
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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              teithant Danny:
              > I admire Gildor for
              > his willingness to help the newbies get their start. This is IMHO a
              > better approach than snapping "look it up" at people who have
              questions,
              > assuming everyone on these lists has access to every volume of
              HoME, VT,
              > etc. It's better to encourage than criticise.


              Thank you for articulating the reason why I come back time & time
              again to ask questions of this group, because of a select few
              (specifically Gildor, Danny, xeeniseit & Elimloth) who always answer
              my questions, at my level of understanding & without judgement. It is
              because of this non-judgmental approach & willingness to share
              knowledge, that I keep coming back & continue learning.

              Calya Estel
            • laurifindil
              ... Knowledge is not so easy to come by. It is not because someone tells you something for free means that it is true or right. Don t forget to read
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calya_estel" <petermichelle@p...>
                wrote:
                > teithant Danny:
                > > I admire Gildor for
                > > his willingness to help the newbies get their start. This is IMHO a
                > > better approach than snapping "look it up" at people who have
                > questions,
                > > assuming everyone on these lists has access to every volume of
                > HoME, VT,
                > > etc. It's better to encourage than criticise.
                >
                >
                > Thank you for articulating the reason why I come back time & time
                > again to ask questions of this group, because of a select few
                > (specifically Gildor, Danny, xeeniseit & Elimloth) who always answer
                > my questions, at my level of understanding & without judgement. It is
                > because of this non-judgmental approach & willingness to share
                > knowledge, that I keep coming back & continue learning.


                Knowledge is not so easy to come by.

                It is not because someone tells you something for "free" means that it
                is true or right.

                Don't forget to read Tolkien's Books.
              • laurifindil
                ... According to Appe E _all_ initial Quenya W V as sound chnaged. But we do not exactly know if that spelling was enforced by Elves as in the case of
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
                  > Teithant machhezan:
                  > >When following pronunciation, you should take
                  > >vala, not wilya
                  >
                  > Not necessarily. Tolkien himself strongly suggests that that initial 'w'
                  > became pronounced 'v' when he explained how 'wilya' came to be
                  > pronounced 'vilya'. We see other examples of initial w>v. Presumably
                  > these would be spelt with vilya as well. Quenya words that begin with
                  > 'v' are derived from PE roots that begin with 'b' or 'w'. The
                  > hypothetical rule is that PE 'b' words are spelt with vala in Quenya
                  > while PE 'w' yields the vilya spelling.

                  According to Appe E _all_ initial Quenya W > V "as sound" chnaged. But
                  we do not exactly know if that spelling was enforced by Elves as in
                  the case of initial ñ/ng- was.
                  We do not even know when this change happened. Probably, it was an old
                  change, and happened in Vanyarin Quenya as well.

                  Tolkien kept on changing the etymology of his Elvish words all the
                  time (including very late in his life). Using "v" instead of "w" was a
                  way for Tolkien to be able to change the etymology of a Word without
                  having to change its spelling in Latin.
                  In Quenya an initial v could come from either an ancient w or b.

                  > >Tolkien himself seems to have followed pronunciation.
                  > >I don't have any documentation right now, but I
                  > >remember that several times he's used silme where
                  > >the etymology/the tradition would ask for thuule
                  > >(suule).
                  >
                  > Several? I know only of the examples of 'Namárie', and there are a
                  > number of theories why he used silme rather than súle. The one I
                  > favour is that the transcription of 'Namárie' that we have is the way
                  > that Frodo recorded it in the Red Book. He wrote it down as he heard it.
                  > His knowledge of Elvish was limited, so he probably was not very
                  > familiar with the orthographic conventions of Quenya. Galadriel would
                  > have likely have used súle rather than silme in the words _hísie_
                  > and _sindanóriello_ had she written the lyrics down for Frodo ... and
                  > probably would have spelt _vanwa_ with vilya instead of vala as well!

                  It is hard to pinpoint the internal origin of Namárie tengwar text in
                  RGEO. It must have been originated with Frodo, quite so, but the
                  surviving mss of the Red Book was proof-read in Gondor ; this is how
                  Tolkien explained the (in)famous change of omentielmo/omentielvo in
                  the Second edition.
                  So these "errors" (s for th, v for w) can be best taken "externally"
                  speaking with my explanation above, but internally they might
                  represent the "usual" 3rd Age spelling of Quenya in Gondor
                  neveretheless.

                  A pity Galadriel did not proof-read it. :-)

                  Edouard Kloczko
                • Astaldil
                  While I too admire Gildor for his kind approach to all questions in this group (as well as many on Elfling) and also the speed at which he replies, I think
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                    While I too admire Gildor for his kind approach to all
                    questions in this group (as well as many on Elfling)
                    and also the speed at which he replies, I think part
                    of the problem is that he nowhere indicated that the
                    infinitive _mele_ is unattested as far as the
                    authoritative corpus goes. It is all fine and well to
                    "coin" new words (although at this point in the study
                    of Quenya overall, I hardly think creating an
                    infinitive from an attested verb is "coining a new
                    word"), but they need to be marked as such, and the
                    original sources and actual attested forms shown.

                    In addition, coining of new words takes immense
                    understanding of phonology and the history of the
                    language in question, and frankly, I do not believe
                    that many people (in Elfling) have the required
                    knowledge to do such. Although I am still quite young
                    as far as these things go, I have studied linguistics,
                    and am continuing to do so, but I am not yet
                    comfortable with coming up with my own forms. I cannot
                    speak for anyone else, however. And my impression, at
                    least, is that Gildor knows very well what he is up
                    to.

                    At any rate, I think another thing to consider is that
                    questions such as this are generally not what this
                    group is about, and, if I remember correctly, Gildor
                    was pretty good at kindly referring them to Elfling.

                    Perhaps I might also take this opportunity to refer
                    okkar72000 to Elfling, where I know that someone would
                    make sure his question got answered, even though there
                    are generally more academics there who would prefer
                    that he do more thorough research on the words
                    involved and attempt to come up with possible forms
                    for the missing words. However, as DDanielA@...
                    has pointed out, some people, on both groups, do
                    indeed assume that everyone does, or should get
                    (before asking questions), the resources at our
                    disposal, including whatever issue of VT a certain
                    word is attested in. Not everybody does, however, and
                    most questions, no matter the work involved, are
                    answered.

                    At any rate, there are other routes, other than buying
                    all 12 HoMe books and back-ordering all 44 VT issues,
                    however, and anyone with an almost-current wordlist
                    would seem like one with access to the library with
                    which the experts work. Unfortunately, they would be
                    missing out on Tolkien's linguistic analysis and
                    explanation of the forms and formation processes
                    involved (well, missing out on what we have of it so
                    far).

                    De Profundis,

                    Astaldil

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                  • laurifindil
                    ... Not many. No. Nobody in fact has, at the present time, that _immense_ understanding. Edouard Kloczko
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Astaldil <astaldil@y...> wrote:
                      > While I too admire Gildor for his kind approach to all
                      > questions in this group (as well as many on Elfling)
                      > and also the speed at which he replies, I think part
                      > of the problem is that he nowhere indicated that the
                      > infinitive _mele_ is unattested as far as the
                      > authoritative corpus goes. It is all fine and well to
                      > "coin" new words (although at this point in the study
                      > of Quenya overall, I hardly think creating an
                      > infinitive from an attested verb is "coining a new
                      > word"), but they need to be marked as such, and the
                      > original sources and actual attested forms shown.
                      >
                      > In addition, coining of new words takes immense
                      > understanding of phonology and the history of the
                      > language in question, and frankly, I do not believe
                      > that many people (in Elfling) have the required
                      > knowledge to do such.

                      Not many. No.
                      Nobody in fact has, at the present time, that _immense_ understanding.

                      Edouard Kloczko
                    • laurifindil
                      ... Only, if the tennager coinage team had a better understanding of what they are doing, and were much less hasty. Not quite the case today. :-( As far we
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Astaldil <astaldil@y...> wrote:
                        > While I too admire Gildor for his kind approach to all
                        > questions in this group (as well as many on Elfling)
                        > and also the speed at which he replies, I think part
                        > of the problem is that he nowhere indicated that the
                        > infinitive _mele_ is unattested as far as the
                        > authoritative corpus goes. It is all fine and well to
                        > "coin" new words (although at this point in the study
                        > of Quenya overall, I hardly think creating an
                        > infinitive from an attested verb is "coining a new
                        > word"), but they need to be marked as such, and the
                        > original sources and actual attested forms shown.


                        Only, if the "tennager coinage team" had a better understanding of
                        what they are doing, and were much less hasty. Not quite the case
                        today. :-(

                        As far we know, there is no infinitive in -e in "late Quenya". We have
                        infinitive (gerundive) in -ie (yalie, in UT) and in -ita (carita, in
                        VT).
                        If *Polin mele could mean "I'm able to love" ; based on Polin quete
                        [in a physical way... :-) but I don't think that is good Quenya,
                        because of the meaning of mel- is not a hard-copy of the English "to
                        love"; Tolkien new better] it does not mean that _mele_ is an Q.
                        infinitive. It is "to love" which is an infinitive. Quenya is not
                        English!

                        Edouard Kloczko
                      • okkar72000
                        ... That s the best answer to my question I saw so far! Pity I had to discover it in another topic than mine... The thing is, there are a lot of ressources out
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Astaldil <astaldil@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Perhaps I might also take this opportunity to refer
                          > okkar72000 to Elfling, where I know that someone would
                          > make sure his question got answered, even though there
                          > are generally more academics there who would prefer
                          > that he do more thorough research on the words
                          > involved and attempt to come up with possible forms
                          > for the missing words. However, as DDanielA@w...
                          > has pointed out, some people, on both groups, do
                          > indeed assume that everyone does, or should get
                          > (before asking questions), the resources at our
                          > disposal, including whatever issue of VT a certain
                          > word is attested in. Not everybody does, however, and
                          > most questions, no matter the work involved, are
                          > answered.

                          That's the best answer to my question I saw so far!
                          Pity I had to discover it in another topic than mine...

                          The thing is, there are a lot of ressources out there about Quenya.
                          But not all of it is reliable. So in order to get better at it, you
                          look around, you sift through the dirt, and you find a couple sites
                          that show a real love and understanding of the language. You start to
                          get involved, and you hit a snag, so you ask a question of the
                          discussion forum that got the most recognition.

                          I was asking for help when I needed it. I did not ask anybody to do
                          the complete work for me. The process is as important as the final
                          result in this. What is so wrong with that?
                        • calya_estel
                          ... it ... I appreciate what you are saying. I will. Calya Estel
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                            teithant laurifindil:
                            >
                            > Knowledge is not so easy to come by.
                            >
                            > It is not because someone tells you something for "free" means that
                            it
                            > is true or right.
                            >
                            > Don't forget to read Tolkien's Books.


                            I appreciate what you are saying. I will.

                            Calya Estel
                          • calya_estel
                            ... If you check my original question it was about tengwar spelling of 5 quenya words, were I used the tengwar names to spell them. I asked for someone to
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 19, 2003
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                              teithant Astaldil:
                              >
                              > At any rate, I think another thing to consider is that
                              > questions such as this are generally not what this
                              > group is about,

                              If you check my original question it was about tengwar spelling of 5
                              quenya words, were I used the tengwar names to spell them. I asked
                              for someone to check them for me. Questions like that is exactly what
                              this group is about, & not for elfling. After all elfscript is about
                              the writing system.

                              And for the very last part of my post; asking for clarification about
                              whether I have identified a word to be a verb or noun correctly (even
                              in quenya) elfing would not bother with. Fortunately for me,
                              elfscript will.

                              Calya estel.
                            • Mark
                              ... 5 ... If you check the first part of my post, it was about Gildor and the composition of Quenya words. It might have been under the subject heading of your
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 20, 2003
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                                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "calya_estel" <petermichelle@p...>
                                wrote:

                                > If you check my original question it was about tengwar spelling of
                                5
                                > quenya words,

                                If you check the first part of my post, it was about Gildor and the
                                composition of Quenya words. It might have been under the subject
                                heading of your original question, but the last few posts before mine
                                were no longer really about spelling, but the construction of a
                                particular verb and someone's reaction to the nature of someone's
                                posts. I was writing mostly in response to that latter part - I am
                                sorry for not changing the subject heading, but then, those who
                                preceded me did not either.

                                (Btw) Once the discussion of the verb got to a question of what an
                                authentic form might be, Elfling would certainly deal with your
                                question. As I said in my post, some people would deal with your
                                question before it got to that point too.

                                At any rate, I have no complaints about questions of spelling - I
                                would not still be a member of this group, and would not continue to
                                read these posts if I felt such questions were misplaced here.

                                I apologize if anyone took my remark about having an immense
                                understanding of phonology amiss. My use of the word immense was not
                                meant to be as emphatic as it might have been taken to be. I
                                understand, of course, that no one really has a very thorough
                                understanding, but I very much trust the posts of several people on
                                both this group and on Elfling, and it seems that if someone errs in
                                a phonological derivation there is someone else there to point it
                                out. I merely meant that it seems that a fair part of those who are
                                interested in the languages do not yet have that required
                                understanding.

                                magno cum sinceritate,

                                Astaldil

                                ~ Quique viris rapimur, piscibus eripimur ~
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