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Re: [elfscript] precise rules for writing quenya with tengwar

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  • Angasule
    ... Is the ui written as a diphthong or how? If there s just an u tehta then the underdot could be the previous i ? If not it must be a final e as Ales
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
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      Jeremie Knusel wrote:
      >
      > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
      > > mention/use it?
      >
      > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des langues
      > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
      > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the last
      > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
      Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
      then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
      as Ales Bican said.
      Angasule
    • Angasule
      ... Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ- remained so and
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
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        DDanielA@... wrote:
        >
        > Angasule deithant:
        >
        > Does he say that? Can you
        > quote? … The sound ñ by itself
        > doesn't occur medially in
        > Quenya outside of clusters,
        > AFAIK
        >
        > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
        > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
        > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
        Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
        augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
        remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
        Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
        dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

        > Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Actually, I was brought up
        > speaking English, French and modern Greek. But I was speaking as a
        > linguistics major on the difference between 'ñ' and 'ñg', not as a
        > native-speaking casual observer.
        But the confusion was in the English example :) I always prefer using
        final written -ng to exemplify ñ.
        Angasule
      • Jeremie Knusel
        ... Tolkien ... langues ... last ... There is a u tehta above lambe, and a i tehta on a short carrier Jeremie
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 15 3:32 AM
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          > > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did
          Tolkien
          > > > mention/use it?
          > >
          > > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des
          langues
          > > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
          > > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the
          last
          > > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
          > Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
          > then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
          > as Ales Bican said.
          > Angasule

          There is a 'u' tehta above lambe, and a 'i' tehta on a short carrier

          Jeremie
        • Jeremie Knusel
          ... To take Tolkien as his word, he didn t talk about initial aha but about initial breath h ... I give the quote again: Thus No. 11 was called harma when
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 15 4:03 AM
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            > So we are to disregard Professor Tolkien when he said that initial 'aha'
            > (= 'harma')
            > has the sound of simple [h]? I tend to take Tolkien as his word, and
            > nowhere did he say that all words beginning with 'harma' should change
            > their spelling to 'hyarmen'.
            > What he did say is that when words beginning with 'harma' began to be
            > pronounced with a breath 'h', the name of the tengwa was changed to
            > 'aha' to reflect the difference in pronunciation. If 'harma'/'aha' can
            > be pronounced as [h]... and JRRT stated that it could... why would one
            > need to change the spelling?

            To take Tolkien as his word, he didn't talk about "initial aha" but about
            "initial breath h"... I give the quote again:
            "Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all
            positions, but when this sound became breath h initially (though remaining
            medially) the name aha was devised"

            I agree that it's not clear. If there were only the first sentence (before
            the coma), I would understand that there was a time where harma represented
            [x] in all positions, then logicaly a time where it represented [x] in some
            positions and an other sound in another position. But with just this
            sentence, it could also be understood that first harma was used in all
            position (to represent [x]) and then that it was no longer used in all
            position, because a tengwa would have replaced harma in some special
            position (e.g. initially). That is what I understand, because of the other
            sentences:

            First, why would it be necessary to change the name of the tengwa, if it was
            used to represend both [x] and breath h? Keeping the name 'harma' would as
            well represent the breath-h function of the tengwa 'harma' as the name 'aha'
            would represent the [x] function of the same tengwa...
            So it seems logical to me that if the elves decided to use the name 'aha',
            whose 'h' is still pronunced [x], it was because
            tengwa harma=[x] and not breath h.

            Now the only remaining problem is: "if harma, or rather aha, could no longer
            be used to write initial 'h', how was it written?"
            And this problem is solved by the footnote:
            "Later 33 was used for independent h,
            and the value of hy (its older value) was represented by adding the tehta
            for following y"

            So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
            add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
            every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
            sorry)

            I hope this text is not too confused...


            Jeremie
          • Jeremie Knusel
            ... Right, about that I was given the example ñolmo - lambengolmo Jeremie
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 15 4:09 AM
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              > > Angasule deithant:
              > >
              > > Does he say that? Can you
              > > quote? . The sound ñ by itself
              > > doesn't occur medially in
              > > Quenya outside of clusters,
              > > AFAIK
              > >
              > > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
              > > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
              > > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
              > Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
              > augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
              > remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
              > Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
              > dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

              Right, about that I was given the example "ñolmo -> lambengolmo"


              Jeremie
            • Mans Bjorkman
              Hello people! Sorry I m late. ... Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always be written with , if the system of the
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 16 1:17 AM
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                Hello people! Sorry I'm late.

                Jeremie Knusel wrote:
                >
                > Halla:
                > -before 'l' or 'r' ('hr' and 'hl' occur virtually always word-initially)
                > -'r' could be rómen as well as óre

                Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always
                be written with <rómen>, if the system of the Namárie inscription is
                followed.


                > -a tilde above a tengwa preceded by 'n', 'm' or 'ñ' (and so no tengwa for
                > the 'n', 'm' or 'ñ')

                This actually occurs in some Quenya inscriptions, but they generally
                seem to be influenced by Westron or Sindarin conventions.


                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
              • Mans Bjorkman
                ... Quite true. However, I strongly believe was, at least, a valid alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: ... [halla] could be placed
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 16 2:05 AM
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                  DDanielA@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT's
                  > tengwar specimens surface. Here's where my opinions differ from the ones
                  > Jeremie presented.
                  >
                  > Halla: We have no clear-cut rule. Professor Tolkien's only reference to
                  > the 'halla' suggests that it might not have survived into later Quenya
                  > in any rôle. His use of the word 'original' is vague. It's possible
                  > that 'hr' and 'hl' were written 'hyarmen rómen' and 'hyarmen lambe' in
                  > the Third Age. It's possible that there were other alternatives. We
                  > don't know.

                  Quite true. However, I strongly believe <halla> was, at least, a valid
                  alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: "... [halla]
                  could be placed before a consonant to indicate that it was unvoiced and
                  breathed; voiceless _r_ and _l_ were usually so expressed and are
                  transcribed _hr_, _hl_." I can only interpret this as saying that some
                  of Tolkien's sources actually used <halla> + r/l, which in The Lord of
                  the Rings is transcribed _hr_, _hl_.


                  > Personally, I doubt the validity of using 'rómen nuquerna'
                  > and 'lambe nuquerna' as I've seen some do to represent 'hr' and 'hl'.

                  I agree. There is no support for this whatsoever in the sources.


                  > Hyarmen: For any word initially? Not so! We have Professor Tolkien's own
                  > statement that 'harma' sometimes represented an 'h' initially and was
                  > then called 'aha'. The initial 'h' in the word 'harma' was, in fact, a
                  > 'harma' (or, rather 'aha', but of course it's the same tengwa!), not
                  > 'hyarmen'.

                  "No. 11 was called _harma_ when it represented the spirant _ch_ in all
                  positions, but when this sound became breath _h_ initially (though
                  remaining medially) the name _aha_ was devised."

                  So:
                  1) <harma> first represented [x] in all positions. The letter was
                  pronunced [xarma].
                  2) [x] became [h] initially. From this follows that the pronounciation
                  became [harma].
                  3) <harma> was renamed <aha>, pronounced [axa]. The name change was
                  obviously made to retain the pronounciation [x] of the letter.


                  > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
                  > phoneme.

                  "TH ... had become _s_ in spoken Quenya, though still written with a
                  different letter". QED.


                  > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
                  > medially.

                  As far as I know, all he says is that the letter combination NG occurs
                  medially, and that the sound of _sing_ "also occurred initally in
                  Quenya, but has been transcribed _n_ (as in _Noldo_), according to the
                  pronounciation of the Third Age."


                  > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
                  > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
                  > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
                  > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?

                  No, all nasals are covered in the conventional Quenya mode.


                  > There is one final vagary: 'anna'. We know that 'anna' must be
                  > accompanied by two under-imposed dots to represent the sound 'y' ( or
                  > IPA [j]), and that 'anna' alone must have a rôle of a carrier of
                  > sorts. Måns uses 'anna' + accent tehta as the first letter of the word
                  > 'ëar' in his calligraphy rendition of the Markirya Boat Poem (btw, a
                  > beautifully rendered manuscript, Måns!), but is this attested, or
                  > simply used to avoid writing two short carriers together? Do we have any
                  > information about the use of 'anna' without the dots? Apparently the
                  > word 'anna' begins with the tengwa of that name.

                  In the short text "Noldorin words for Language" (Vinyar Tengwar #39) p.
                  17, we learn that <anna> originally represented [3], i.e. a spirant _g_
                  -- a sound that had, in fact, vanished from the language in Feanor's
                  time. Although this is entirely unattested, one could therefore
                  theoretically use <anna> in positions where this sound occurred earlier.
                  That is the way I use it in my _Markirya_ rendition: _ear_ derives from
                  earlier *_gayar_ (Tolkien changed his mind several times about the
                  etymology of this word, but see The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The
                  Shibboleth of Fëanor" note 45). Having said this, it *is* nice to be
                  able to avoid consecutive vowel-carriers! :-)


                  Yours,
                  Måns

                  --
                  Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                  Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                  SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                  Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                • Lisa Star
                  ... ... **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien s explanation made sense. For one thing, when a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 16 3:06 PM
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                    >From: "Jeremie Knusel" <elendur@...>

                    <snip long, reasonably clear explanation>

                    >So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
                    >add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
                    >every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
                    >sorry)
                    >
                    >I hope this text is not too confused...

                    **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien's explanation
                    made sense. For one thing, when a sound change occurs in a language, the
                    spelling usually remains the same for a long time. Ex., the Latin word
                    circus was originally pronounced with both the c's as k's. Over time, there
                    was a sound change that caused c to be pronounced as s before a front vowel,
                    but we still spell it with two c's, even though it is ridiculous and
                    confusing. Some languages are normally spelled accurately, and the elves
                    were presumably more linguistically aware than most people, but writing is
                    never as accurate as native speakers think it is, except right after a major
                    spelling reform.

                    **I thought the explanation of the switch of harma to aha was so strange
                    that I invented a new explanation for it. I decided that the elves altered
                    the name of the letter from a word meaning 'treasure' to a word meaning
                    'rage' in acknowledgement of the devastation caused by Feanor's attempts to
                    regain the Silmarils--i.e., the Wars of the Jewels. This is a fantasy of
                    course, but it makes better sense then Tolkien's explantion. I wonder what
                    his real reason was? Often when he gives some very strange convoluted
                    reason for something, it's because he (seems to) want to avoid a simpler
                    explanation that everyone would recognize the source for. I don't know what
                    that would be here, though.

                    ** Lisa Star
                    ** LisaStar@...

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