Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [elfscript] precise rules for writing quenya with tengwar

Expand Messages
  • Angasule
    ... In his description he mentions old uses, so indeed, thúle for th, and súle for s
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 13 3:54 PM
      DDanielA@... wrote:
      >
      > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
      > phoneme.
      In his description he mentions old uses, so indeed, thúle for th, and
      súle for s < th :)

      > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
      > medially. This would be as a simple nasal 'ñ' between vowels when not
      > followed by a velar consonant or 'w'. (English example: 'noldo' = the
      > 'ng' in 'singer', 'anga' = the 'ng' in 'finger'.)
      ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are not the same thing! in anga it's two
      sounds, in ngoldo it's one; in fact the first consonant sound in anga is
      the sound in ngoldo...

      > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
      > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
      > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
      > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?
      I think as he says that it can be used for extra freedom for those
      consonant clusters that can be written as single tengwar, and also for
      'nv' and other such clusters.
      Angasule
    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      Jeremie Knusel deithant: But since it was renamed to aha, wouldn t that mean that words previously written harma as first tengwa (like harma) became written
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 13 7:44 PM
        Jeremie Knusel deithant:

        But since it was renamed to aha,
        wouldn't that mean that words
        previously written harma as first
        tengwa (like harma) became
        written with hyarmen?

        I don't think so. Tolkien said that 'harma', not 'hyarmen', was renamed
        'aha' as an initial tengwa. Why would he bother telling us what name
        'harma' had when it occurred initially if it didn't occur initially?

        Ok I didn't know that there were
        words with 'ñ' medially, followed
        by a vowel...

        Again, refer to JRRT himself. He refers to 'noldo' having the sound 'n'
        initially while retaining the sound 'ñ' medially. Again, why would
        this tengwa retain the 'ñ' sound medially if it, indeed, did not
        occur medially?

        About 'thúle' = 'th'...Okay, it's fine for historical purposes. I
        thought we were discussing Quenya in the Third Age! ;)

        A nasal sign in Quenya...I suppose it's a possibility.

        Angasule deithant:

        ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are
        not the same thing!

        Whoa! I did NOT say they were the same thing! Reread my English example.
        The 'ng' in 'singer' = 'ñ' (noldo), but the 'ng' in 'finger' = 'ñg'
        (anga). These two words do not properly rhyme in English because
        'singer' has a simple nasal, but 'finger' has a nasal + a velar
        consonant. How did you infer that I was saying they were the same? And
        you're right: the first consonant sound in 'anga' is 'ñ', but since
        it's 'ñ' + 'g', it's written with the tengwa 'anga'.

        What about ht? With harma. too?

        I think so. JRRT tells us that 'ht' has the sound [xt] (IPA
        reprsentation). 'Harma' can have the sound [x]; in fact, that was its
        original sound. I have seen no indication that 'hyarmen' ever
        represented any phoneme other than [h] or, earlier, [hj]. In addition,
        in his Old English mode, he used 'harma/tinco' and 'hwesta/tinco'
        ligatures to represent the [xt] sound written 'ht'. I realise that Old
        English is not Quenya, but he observes Quenya usage in several instances
        in this mode.

        One additional curiosity of Quenya: The combination 'lv' (as in
        'omentielvo') was often written 'lambe umbar', especially by elves. From
        LotR, Appendix E.

        I'm sure we all look forward to additional tengwar works of JRRT to come
        to light so that these questions can be answered by the inventor of
        Quenya!

        Namárië! Danny.
      • Angasule
        ... Does he say that? Can you quote? I lent my lotr, and it s in spanish anyway (they sometimes don t translate whole phrases :/ ). The sound ñ by itself
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 13 8:52 PM
          DDanielA@... wrote:
          >
          > Ok I didn't know that there were
          > words with 'ñ' medially, followed
          > by a vowel...
          >
          > Again, refer to JRRT himself. He refers to 'noldo' having the sound 'n'
          > initially while retaining the sound 'ñ' medially. Again, why would
          > this tengwa retain the 'ñ' sound medially if it, indeed, did not
          > occur medially?
          Does he say that? Can you quote? I lent my lotr, and it's in spanish
          anyway (they sometimes don't translate whole phrases :/ ). The sound ñ
          by itself doesn't occur medially in Quenya outside of clusters, AFAIK.

          > Angasule deithant:
          >
          > ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are
          > not the same thing!
          >
          > Whoa! I did NOT say they were the same thing! Reread my English example.
          > The 'ng' in 'singer' = 'ñ' (noldo), but the 'ng' in 'finger' = 'ñg'
          > (anga). These two words do not properly rhyme in English because
          > 'singer' has a simple nasal, but 'finger' has a nasal + a velar
          > consonant. How did you infer that I was saying they were the same? And
          > you're right: the first consonant sound in 'anga' is 'ñ', but since
          > it's 'ñ' + 'g', it's written with the tengwa 'anga'.
          AFAIK, noldo was never used medially, although the sound ñ did in the
          clusters ng, nk, ngw, nqu, for each of which a tengwa exists and in any
          case if they weren't written with their own tengwa they'd be written as
          k + nasal bar or qu + nasal bar rather than noldo + k or noldo + qu
          which would be a clumsy construction. Btw, I'm not a native english
          speaker and don't know if you are one, either, didn't know there was a
          difference between singer and finger, email is not the best place to
          talk about phonetics anyway :)
          Angasule
        • Jeremie Knusel
          ... I can t find where I saw it but as example, in the dictionnaire des langues elfiques , p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of menelluin irildeo
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 14 2:57 AM
            > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
            > mention/use it?

            I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des langues
            elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
            ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the last
            'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
          • Jeremie Knusel
            ... In appendix E, it s said: Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all positions, but when this sound became breath h initially
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 14 3:52 AM
              > I don't think so. Tolkien said that 'harma', not 'hyarmen', was renamed
              > 'aha' as an initial tengwa. Why would he bother telling us what name
              > 'harma' had when it occurred initially if it didn't occur initially?

              In appendix E, it's said:
              "Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all
              positions, but when this sound became breath h initially (though remaining
              medially) the name aha was devised"

              I understand that harma was no longer used to write the word harma (for
              example), since the sound became breath h, and so it was not logical to use
              the name harma for this tengwa, so it's name was changed to aha, which is
              still written with harma

              in the footnote:
              "For breath h Quenya originally used a simple raised stem without bow,
              called halla 'tall'. This could be placed before a consonant to indicate
              that it was unvoiced and breathed; voiceless r and l were usually so
              expressed and are transcribed hr, hl. Later 33 was used for independent h,
              and the value of hy (its older value) was represented by adding the tehta
              for following y"

              Here I understand that when harma could no longer represent the h, because
              it was pronunced as a breath h, it was replaced by hyarmen (which was
              previously used just to represent a kind of ich-laut sound. when it became
              necessary, word-initially, to know that it represented ich-laut (written
              'hy') and not breath h, one added two dots bellow)

              > One additional curiosity of Quenya: The combination 'lv' (as in
              > 'omentielvo') was often written 'lambe umbar', especially by elves. From
              > LotR, Appendix E.

              Thanks, I had not noticed that :)

              > I'm sure we all look forward to additional tengwar works of JRRT to come
              > to light so that these questions can be answered by the inventor of
              > Quenya!

              Yes... do one know anything about future publications?


              Jeremie
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              Angasule deithant: Does he say that? Can you quote? … The sound ñ by itself doesn t occur medially in Quenya outside of clusters, AFAIK I wish I remembered
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 14 4:38 PM
                Angasule deithant:

                Does he say that? Can you
                quote? … The sound ñ by itself
                doesn't occur medially in
                Quenya outside of clusters,
                AFAIK

                I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.

                Btw, I'm not a native english
                speaker and don't know if you
                are one, either … email is not
                the best place to talk about
                phonetics anyway :)

                Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Actually, I was brought up
                speaking English, French and modern Greek. But I was speaking as a
                linguistics major on the difference between 'ñ' and 'ñg', not as a
                native-speaking casual observer. I agree that e-mail is not the best
                place to talk about phonetics, but it's all we have, and the evolution
                of Quenya orthography is bound up with phonetics. It's hard to talk
                about one without bringing up the other.

                Jeremie Knusel deithant:
                I understand that harma was
                no longer used to write the word
                harma (for example), since the
                sound became breath h, and so
                it was not logical to use the name
                harma for this tengwa, so it's
                name was changed to aha,
                which is still written with harma.

                So we are to disregard Professor Tolkien when he said that initial 'aha'
                (= 'harma')
                has the sound of simple [h]? I tend to take Tolkien as his word, and
                nowhere did he say that all words beginning with 'harma' should change
                their spelling to 'hyarmen'.
                What he did say is that when words beginning with 'harma' began to be
                pronounced with a breath 'h', the name of the tengwa was changed to
                'aha' to reflect the difference in pronunciation. If 'harma'/'aha' can
                be pronounced as [h]... and JRRT stated that it could... why would one
                need to change the spelling?

                Again, there are bound to be differences in opinion, and I can only
                present what I understand the scant written evidence to mean. Any of us
                can be mistaken...

                Namárië! Danny.
              • Angasule
                ... Is the ui written as a diphthong or how? If there s just an u tehta then the underdot could be the previous i ? If not it must be a final e as Ales
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
                  Jeremie Knusel wrote:
                  >
                  > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
                  > > mention/use it?
                  >
                  > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des langues
                  > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
                  > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the last
                  > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
                  Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
                  then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
                  as Ales Bican said.
                  Angasule
                • Angasule
                  ... Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ- remained so and
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
                    DDanielA@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Angasule deithant:
                    >
                    > Does he say that? Can you
                    > quote? … The sound ñ by itself
                    > doesn't occur medially in
                    > Quenya outside of clusters,
                    > AFAIK
                    >
                    > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                    > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                    > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
                    Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
                    augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
                    remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
                    Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
                    dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

                    > Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Actually, I was brought up
                    > speaking English, French and modern Greek. But I was speaking as a
                    > linguistics major on the difference between 'ñ' and 'ñg', not as a
                    > native-speaking casual observer.
                    But the confusion was in the English example :) I always prefer using
                    final written -ng to exemplify ñ.
                    Angasule
                  • Jeremie Knusel
                    ... Tolkien ... langues ... last ... There is a u tehta above lambe, and a i tehta on a short carrier Jeremie
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 15 3:32 AM
                      > > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did
                      Tolkien
                      > > > mention/use it?
                      > >
                      > > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des
                      langues
                      > > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
                      > > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the
                      last
                      > > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
                      > Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
                      > then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
                      > as Ales Bican said.
                      > Angasule

                      There is a 'u' tehta above lambe, and a 'i' tehta on a short carrier

                      Jeremie
                    • Jeremie Knusel
                      ... To take Tolkien as his word, he didn t talk about initial aha but about initial breath h ... I give the quote again: Thus No. 11 was called harma when
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 15 4:03 AM
                        > So we are to disregard Professor Tolkien when he said that initial 'aha'
                        > (= 'harma')
                        > has the sound of simple [h]? I tend to take Tolkien as his word, and
                        > nowhere did he say that all words beginning with 'harma' should change
                        > their spelling to 'hyarmen'.
                        > What he did say is that when words beginning with 'harma' began to be
                        > pronounced with a breath 'h', the name of the tengwa was changed to
                        > 'aha' to reflect the difference in pronunciation. If 'harma'/'aha' can
                        > be pronounced as [h]... and JRRT stated that it could... why would one
                        > need to change the spelling?

                        To take Tolkien as his word, he didn't talk about "initial aha" but about
                        "initial breath h"... I give the quote again:
                        "Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all
                        positions, but when this sound became breath h initially (though remaining
                        medially) the name aha was devised"

                        I agree that it's not clear. If there were only the first sentence (before
                        the coma), I would understand that there was a time where harma represented
                        [x] in all positions, then logicaly a time where it represented [x] in some
                        positions and an other sound in another position. But with just this
                        sentence, it could also be understood that first harma was used in all
                        position (to represent [x]) and then that it was no longer used in all
                        position, because a tengwa would have replaced harma in some special
                        position (e.g. initially). That is what I understand, because of the other
                        sentences:

                        First, why would it be necessary to change the name of the tengwa, if it was
                        used to represend both [x] and breath h? Keeping the name 'harma' would as
                        well represent the breath-h function of the tengwa 'harma' as the name 'aha'
                        would represent the [x] function of the same tengwa...
                        So it seems logical to me that if the elves decided to use the name 'aha',
                        whose 'h' is still pronunced [x], it was because
                        tengwa harma=[x] and not breath h.

                        Now the only remaining problem is: "if harma, or rather aha, could no longer
                        be used to write initial 'h', how was it written?"
                        And this problem is solved by the footnote:
                        "Later 33 was used for independent h,
                        and the value of hy (its older value) was represented by adding the tehta
                        for following y"

                        So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
                        add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
                        every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
                        sorry)

                        I hope this text is not too confused...


                        Jeremie
                      • Jeremie Knusel
                        ... Right, about that I was given the example ñolmo - lambengolmo Jeremie
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 15 4:09 AM
                          > > Angasule deithant:
                          > >
                          > > Does he say that? Can you
                          > > quote? . The sound ñ by itself
                          > > doesn't occur medially in
                          > > Quenya outside of clusters,
                          > > AFAIK
                          > >
                          > > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                          > > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                          > > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
                          > Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
                          > augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
                          > remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
                          > Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
                          > dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

                          Right, about that I was given the example "ñolmo -> lambengolmo"


                          Jeremie
                        • Mans Bjorkman
                          Hello people! Sorry I m late. ... Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always be written with , if the system of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 16 1:17 AM
                            Hello people! Sorry I'm late.

                            Jeremie Knusel wrote:
                            >
                            > Halla:
                            > -before 'l' or 'r' ('hr' and 'hl' occur virtually always word-initially)
                            > -'r' could be rómen as well as óre

                            Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always
                            be written with <rómen>, if the system of the Namárie inscription is
                            followed.


                            > -a tilde above a tengwa preceded by 'n', 'm' or 'ñ' (and so no tengwa for
                            > the 'n', 'm' or 'ñ')

                            This actually occurs in some Quenya inscriptions, but they generally
                            seem to be influenced by Westron or Sindarin conventions.


                            --
                            Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                            Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                            SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                            Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                          • Mans Bjorkman
                            ... Quite true. However, I strongly believe was, at least, a valid alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: ... [halla] could be placed
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 16 2:05 AM
                              DDanielA@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT's
                              > tengwar specimens surface. Here's where my opinions differ from the ones
                              > Jeremie presented.
                              >
                              > Halla: We have no clear-cut rule. Professor Tolkien's only reference to
                              > the 'halla' suggests that it might not have survived into later Quenya
                              > in any rôle. His use of the word 'original' is vague. It's possible
                              > that 'hr' and 'hl' were written 'hyarmen rómen' and 'hyarmen lambe' in
                              > the Third Age. It's possible that there were other alternatives. We
                              > don't know.

                              Quite true. However, I strongly believe <halla> was, at least, a valid
                              alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: "... [halla]
                              could be placed before a consonant to indicate that it was unvoiced and
                              breathed; voiceless _r_ and _l_ were usually so expressed and are
                              transcribed _hr_, _hl_." I can only interpret this as saying that some
                              of Tolkien's sources actually used <halla> + r/l, which in The Lord of
                              the Rings is transcribed _hr_, _hl_.


                              > Personally, I doubt the validity of using 'rómen nuquerna'
                              > and 'lambe nuquerna' as I've seen some do to represent 'hr' and 'hl'.

                              I agree. There is no support for this whatsoever in the sources.


                              > Hyarmen: For any word initially? Not so! We have Professor Tolkien's own
                              > statement that 'harma' sometimes represented an 'h' initially and was
                              > then called 'aha'. The initial 'h' in the word 'harma' was, in fact, a
                              > 'harma' (or, rather 'aha', but of course it's the same tengwa!), not
                              > 'hyarmen'.

                              "No. 11 was called _harma_ when it represented the spirant _ch_ in all
                              positions, but when this sound became breath _h_ initially (though
                              remaining medially) the name _aha_ was devised."

                              So:
                              1) <harma> first represented [x] in all positions. The letter was
                              pronunced [xarma].
                              2) [x] became [h] initially. From this follows that the pronounciation
                              became [harma].
                              3) <harma> was renamed <aha>, pronounced [axa]. The name change was
                              obviously made to retain the pronounciation [x] of the letter.


                              > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
                              > phoneme.

                              "TH ... had become _s_ in spoken Quenya, though still written with a
                              different letter". QED.


                              > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
                              > medially.

                              As far as I know, all he says is that the letter combination NG occurs
                              medially, and that the sound of _sing_ "also occurred initally in
                              Quenya, but has been transcribed _n_ (as in _Noldo_), according to the
                              pronounciation of the Third Age."


                              > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
                              > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
                              > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
                              > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?

                              No, all nasals are covered in the conventional Quenya mode.


                              > There is one final vagary: 'anna'. We know that 'anna' must be
                              > accompanied by two under-imposed dots to represent the sound 'y' ( or
                              > IPA [j]), and that 'anna' alone must have a rôle of a carrier of
                              > sorts. Måns uses 'anna' + accent tehta as the first letter of the word
                              > 'ëar' in his calligraphy rendition of the Markirya Boat Poem (btw, a
                              > beautifully rendered manuscript, Måns!), but is this attested, or
                              > simply used to avoid writing two short carriers together? Do we have any
                              > information about the use of 'anna' without the dots? Apparently the
                              > word 'anna' begins with the tengwa of that name.

                              In the short text "Noldorin words for Language" (Vinyar Tengwar #39) p.
                              17, we learn that <anna> originally represented [3], i.e. a spirant _g_
                              -- a sound that had, in fact, vanished from the language in Feanor's
                              time. Although this is entirely unattested, one could therefore
                              theoretically use <anna> in positions where this sound occurred earlier.
                              That is the way I use it in my _Markirya_ rendition: _ear_ derives from
                              earlier *_gayar_ (Tolkien changed his mind several times about the
                              etymology of this word, but see The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The
                              Shibboleth of Fëanor" note 45). Having said this, it *is* nice to be
                              able to avoid consecutive vowel-carriers! :-)


                              Yours,
                              Måns

                              --
                              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                              Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                            • Lisa Star
                              ... ... **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien s explanation made sense. For one thing, when a
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 16 3:06 PM
                                >From: "Jeremie Knusel" <elendur@...>

                                <snip long, reasonably clear explanation>

                                >So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
                                >add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
                                >every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
                                >sorry)
                                >
                                >I hope this text is not too confused...

                                **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien's explanation
                                made sense. For one thing, when a sound change occurs in a language, the
                                spelling usually remains the same for a long time. Ex., the Latin word
                                circus was originally pronounced with both the c's as k's. Over time, there
                                was a sound change that caused c to be pronounced as s before a front vowel,
                                but we still spell it with two c's, even though it is ridiculous and
                                confusing. Some languages are normally spelled accurately, and the elves
                                were presumably more linguistically aware than most people, but writing is
                                never as accurate as native speakers think it is, except right after a major
                                spelling reform.

                                **I thought the explanation of the switch of harma to aha was so strange
                                that I invented a new explanation for it. I decided that the elves altered
                                the name of the letter from a word meaning 'treasure' to a word meaning
                                'rage' in acknowledgement of the devastation caused by Feanor's attempts to
                                regain the Silmarils--i.e., the Wars of the Jewels. This is a fantasy of
                                course, but it makes better sense then Tolkien's explantion. I wonder what
                                his real reason was? Often when he gives some very strange convoluted
                                reason for something, it's because he (seems to) want to avoid a simpler
                                explanation that everyone would recognize the source for. I don't know what
                                that would be here, though.

                                ** Lisa Star
                                ** LisaStar@...

                                _________________________________________________________________
                                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.