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Re: [elfscript]: consonantal y in "full" Sindarin

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  • Javier Lorenzo
    ... In KL I _Iorhael_ and _ionnath_ are written with a long carrier, but a short carrier is actually used for initial i- in the second version of KL (see VT29,
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2003
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      > Sure there is: _ionnath_ and _Iorhael_ in KL I & II. Both are written
      > with a long carrier.

      In KL I _Iorhael_ and _ionnath_ are written with a long carrier, but a
      short carrier is actually used for initial i- in the second version of
      KL (see VT29, front cover).


      Javier Lorenzo
    • gildir_2
      ... And in KL-III (DTS 49), initial i- is written with Yanta. It must be presumed that Tolkien considered KL-I and KL-II as drafts, and KL-III as more or less
      Message 2 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Javier Lorenzo" <javilm@t...>
        wrote:

        > > Sure there is: _ionnath_ and _Iorhael_ in KL I & II. Both are
        > > written with a long carrier.
        >
        > In KL I _Iorhael_ and _ionnath_ are written with a long carrier,
        > but a short carrier is actually used for initial i- in the
        > second version of KL (see VT29, front cover).

        And in KL-III (DTS 49), initial i- is written with Yanta.

        It must be presumed that Tolkien considered KL-I and KL-II
        as drafts, and KL-III as more or less canonical. So we
        should follow it more than the others.

        Does 'consonantal y' in Sindarin (transcribed 'i-')
        appear anywhere else than initially?

        Suilaid,
        Gildir, Per Lindberg
      • Gildor Inglorion
        teithant gildir_2 ... AFAIK no ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Αποκτήστε τη δωρεάν @yahoo.gr
        Message 3 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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          teithant gildir_2

          > Does 'consonantal y' in Sindarin (transcribed 'i-')
          > appear anywhere else than initially?

          AFAIK no

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        • xeeniseit
          So we all seem to agree that in the mode of the Moria gate (AKA mode of Beleriand), consonantal y is written with a long carrier. ... BTW, anybody ever found a
          Message 4 of 20 , May 7, 2003
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            So we all seem to agree that in the mode of the Moria gate (AKA mode
            of Beleriand), consonantal y is written with a long carrier.

            Gildir teithant:
            > And in KL-III (DTS 49), initial i- is written with Yanta.

            BTW, anybody ever found a possible explanation why yanta is used and
            not anna, as it is the case in other tehtar modes with the same témar
            distribution (e.g. DTS 10 or DTS 39). I've always thought of this
            yanta as of an unexplainable exception, which is very unsatisfying.

            > Does 'consonantal y' in Sindarin (transcribed 'i-')
            > appear anywhere else than initially?

            The -i in diphtongs could be considered a consonantal y.

            suilaid
          • Gildor Inglorion
            teithant xeeniseit ... maybe because it was both availiable and nice as a shape... and except that (and maybe it was the main reason) it was the original
            Message 5 of 20 , May 7, 2003
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              teithant xeeniseit

              > BTW, anybody ever found a possible explanation why
              > yanta is used and
              > not anna, as it is the case in other tehtar modes
              > with the same tιmar
              > distribution (e.g. DTS 10 or DTS 39). I've always
              > thought of this
              > yanta as of an unexplainable exception, which is
              > very unsatisfying.

              maybe because it was both availiable and nice as a
              shape... and except that (and maybe it was the main
              reason) it was the original consonantal y letter in
              the primal tengwar mode(s) (cf. it's name)

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            • xeeniseit
              teithant xeeniseitBTW, anybody ever found a possible explanation why yanta is used and not anna, as it is the case in other tehtar modes with the same
              Message 6 of 20 , May 8, 2003
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                teithant xeeniseit

                >> BTW, anybody ever found a possible explanation why yanta is used and
                not anna, as it is the case in other tehtar modes with the same témar
                distribution (e.g. DTS 10 or DTS 39). I've always thought of this yanta as=
                of an
                unexplainable exception, which is very unsatisfying.

                Gildor teithant:

                > and except that (and maybe it was the main reason) it was the original
                consonantal y letter in the primal tengwar mode(s) (cf. it's name)

                I'm not so sure whether the Quenya mode is the original or the primal tengw=
                ar
                mode. If it were like that, then the other modes should be similar to it. B=
                ut the
                similarities between them are bigger than the similarities between the Quen=
                ya
                mode and any of them. The Quenya mode doesn't even follow the generally
                accepted relations between the letters as explained in the appendices. Ther=
                e
                it is said explicitly that it differs from the other modes. (First sentence=
                of the
                sub-chapter "comment" or so, I'm sorry I can't cite the original.)

                And if yanta is a modification of anna (of what other tengwa could it be a =

                modification?), we can assume that in the very original mode we unfortunate=
                ly
                don't know of, anna would represent a consonantal y-sound. This could even =

                lead to the assumption that the calmatéma very originally was a (truely)
                palatal series. But I'm not sure whether that early Quenya already had pala=
                tal
                sounds or whether they only developped later.

                suilaid
              • Gildor Inglorion
                teithant xeeniseit ... it s because didnt base tengwar on Quenya, but in general elvish phonology, so that the tengwar could be adapted in any language... he
                Message 7 of 20 , May 8, 2003
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                  teithant xeeniseit

                  > mode and any of them. The Quenya mode doesn't even
                  > follow the generally
                  > accepted relations between the letters as explained
                  > in the appendices. Ther=
                  > e
                  > it is said explicitly that it differs from the other
                  > modes. (First sentence=
                  > of the
                  > sub-chapter "comment" or so, I'm sorry I can't cite
                  > the original.)

                  it's because didnt base tengwar on Quenya, but in
                  general elvish phonology, so that the tengwar could be
                  adapted in any language...

                  he then adapted Quenya to them, but the adaptation was
                  not perfect (not as sindarin or westron) because of
                  Quenya's strict rules

                  > And if yanta is a modification of anna (of what
                  > other tengwa could it be a =
                  > modification?), we can assume that in the very
                  > original mode we unfortunate=
                  > ly
                  > don't know of, anna would represent a consonantal
                  > y-sound. This could even =

                  no, yanta and anna have no relation.. my theory is
                  that yanta was used as consonantal y while anna was
                  used for a carrier and/or to show early-lost initial
                  g- sound (eg. alda from galada or alasse from galasse)

                  > lead to the assumption that the calmatιma very
                  > originally was a (truely)
                  > palatal series. But I'm not sure whether that early
                  > Quenya already had pala=
                  > tal
                  > sounds or whether they only developped later.

                  tyelpetema was then for palatalised sounds

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                • xeeniseit
                  ... (not as sindarin or westron) because of Quenya s strict rules Suppose you mean King s Letter Sindarin, as Moria Gate Sindarin doesn t even have consistent
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 8, 2003
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                    Gildor Inglorion teithant:
                    > he then adapted Quenya to them, but the adaptation was not perfect
                    (not as sindarin or westron) because of Quenya's strict rules

                    Suppose you mean King's Letter Sindarin, as Moria Gate Sindarin
                    doesn't even have consistent tyeller. Which Quenya has (except for
                    óretyelle, but that's the case in most modes). It only changes the
                    meaning of the lúvar, but the change is more or less regular: A
                    doubled lúva means (pre)nasalisation.

                    xeeniseit teithant:
                    >> And if yanta is a modification of anna (of what other tengwa could
                    it be a modification?), we can assume that in the very original mode
                    we unfortunately don't know of, anna would represent a consonantal y-
                    sound.

                    Gildor Inglorion teithant:
                    > no, yanta and anna have no relation.. my theory is that yanta was
                    used as consonantal y while anna was used for a carrier and/or to
                    show early-lost initial g- sound (eg. alda from galada or alasse from
                    galasse)

                    The appendices say that all additional letters but lambe and silme
                    are modifications of another tengwa. What other tengwa could be the
                    model for yanta, if it's not anna?

                    Assuming that the appendices are right, and assuming that yanta is
                    really developped out of anna, then we have to ask: why? There is a
                    certain similarity between g-sounds and y-sounds, cf. "yesterday" to
                    German "gestern" (yesterday) and "Tag" (day). But Quenya didn't have
                    the development *g>y but *g>*gh>(zero). I don't know a lot about the
                    historical phonology of Quenya, but it seems very unlikely to me to
                    assume *g>*y>(zero), because Third Age Quenya has y-sounds in the
                    same environments where that loss would have taken place.

                    Why then? Perhaps: Anna is the very original sign for the y-
                    consonant, yanta has developped from it, because there was a need for
                    a special sign for the -i in diphtongs.

                    But if anna was the very original sign for the y-consonant, the
                    original value of calmatéma couldn't be that of a velar series, but
                    rather of some kind of palatal series. Quenya has such a series, but
                    it uses calmatéma with two underposed dots for it. Do we have to
                    assume that Feanor originally designed a wholly different témar
                    distribution? Or is it more likely that the original tengwar mode was
                    designed for the English language, not by Feanor but rather by J.R.R.
                    Tolkien?

                    suilaid
                  • Gildor Inglorion
                    teithant xeeniseit ... none... yanta and hyarmen seem to be related ... where? the only circumstance i can remember is yelle from GJEL... in Quenya, as far as
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 10, 2003
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                      teithant xeeniseit

                      > The appendices say that all additional letters but
                      > lambe and silme
                      > are modifications of another tengwa. What other
                      > tengwa could be the
                      > model for yanta, if it's not anna?

                      none... yanta and hyarmen seem to be related

                      > German "gestern" (yesterday) and "Tag" (day). But
                      > Quenya didn't have
                      > the development *g>y but *g>*gh>(zero). I don't know
                      > a lot about the
                      > historical phonology of Quenya, but it seems very
                      > unlikely to me to
                      > assume *g>*y>(zero), because Third Age Quenya has
                      > y-sounds in the
                      > same environments where that loss would have taken
                      > place.

                      where? the only circumstance i can remember is yelle
                      from GJEL... in Quenya, as far as etymology and
                      phonology are concerned, y is not related to g

                      > Why then? Perhaps: Anna is the very original sign
                      > for the y-
                      > consonant, yanta has developped from it, because
                      > there was a need for
                      > a special sign for the -i in diphtongs.

                      App. D of Quendi and Eldar says more or less, that the
                      original value of Anna was *gh- and it was used as a
                      tehtar carrier.. when this way of thinking was
                      abandoned, anna was used now as 'following-y' carrier,
                      because as i udnerstand, the dots under the short
                      carrier wouldnt look good

                      > But if anna was the very original sign for the
                      > y-consonant, the
                      > original value of calmatιma couldn't be that of a
                      > velar series, but
                      > rather of some kind of palatal series. Quenya has
                      > such a series, but
                      > it uses calmatιma with two underposed dots for it.

                      no, it used Tyelpetema which is Tincotema with dots

                      > Do we have to
                      > assume that Feanor originally designed a wholly
                      > different tιmar
                      > distribution? Or is it more likely that the original
                      > tengwar mode was
                      > designed for the English language, not by Feanor but
                      > rather by J.R.R.
                      > Tolkien?

                      you might be interested in the Quenta Eldatencelion i
                      have written (still not perfect), found in the essays
                      of Gwaith.. it was based mostly on App. D of Quendi
                      and Eldar

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                    • Gildor Inglorion
                      im teithant ... gee i just remembered... felya from phelga, and possibly other cases... you are right :)
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 10, 2003
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                        im teithant

                        > where? the only circumstance i can remember is yelle
                        > from GJEL... in Quenya, as far as etymology and
                        > phonology are concerned, y is not related to g

                        gee i just remembered... felya from phelga, and
                        possibly other cases... you are right :)

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                      • xeeniseit
                        teithant xeeniseit: The appendices say that all additional letters but lambe and silme are modifications of another tengwa. What other tengwa could be the
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 11, 2003
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                          teithant xeeniseit:
                          >> The appendices say that all additional letters but lambe and silme are
                          modifications of another tengwa. What other tengwa could be the model for
                          yanta, if it's not anna?

                          Gildor teithant:
                          > none... yanta and hyarmen seem to be related

                          That's true, and it makes sense, as the pair hy/y is the palatal fricative =

                          unvoiced/voiced opposition. But this doesn't change much, because hyarmen
                          also is a modification of one of the primary letters (if the appendices are=
                          right).
                          Of which one? I'd guess of harma. That's the same case: A sign for a palata=
                          l
                          sound (no matter whether yanta or hyarmen) is borrowed from calmatéma.
                          And that seem very curious to me.

                          But if -as Gildor's affirmed- Quenyan y is somewhat related to g, this coul=
                          d be
                          the explanation. I wonder whether the sound of hy also has a relation to
                          palatal sounds? Then the development from harma to hyarmen could also be
                          explained. Who knows about that?

                          suilaid
                        • laurifindil
                          ... e = unvoiced/voiced opposition. But this doesn t change much, because hyarmen= ... re= right). Of which one? I d guess of harma. That s the same
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 12, 2003
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                            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:
                            > teithant xeeniseit:
                            > >> The appendices say that all additional letters but lambe and silme are=

                            > modifications of another tengwa. What other tengwa could be the model for=

                            > yanta, if it's not anna?
                            >
                            > Gildor teithant:
                            > > none... yanta and hyarmen seem to be related
                            >
                            > That's true, and it makes sense, as the pair hy/y is the palatal fricativ=
                            e =
                            >
                            > unvoiced/voiced opposition. But this doesn't change much, because hyarmen=

                            > also is a modification of one of the primary letters (if the appendices a=
                            re=
                            > right).
                            > Of which one? I'd guess of harma. That's the same case: A sign for a pala=
                            ta=
                            > l
                            > sound (no matter whether yanta or hyarmen) is borrowed from calmatéma.
                            > And that seem very curious to me.
                            >
                            > But if -as Gildor's affirmed- Quenyan y is somewhat related to g, this co=
                            ul=
                            > d be
                            > the explanation. I wonder whether the sound of hy also has a relation to =

                            > palatal sounds? Then the development from harma to hyarmen could also be =

                            > explained. Who knows about that?

                            All of this is just plain nonsense! :-(

                            The tengwa _yanta_ is just a copy of a sarat ; see/read Parma XIII, p.
                            88.

                            EJK
                          • xeeniseit
                            Laurifindil teithant: The tengwa _yanta_ is just a copy of a sarat ;I suppose this an explicit statement by Tolkien, isn t it? If it really is,= then it s
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 13, 2003
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                              Laurifindil teithant:
                              > The tengwa _yanta_ is just a copy of a sarat ;

                              I suppose this an explicit statement by Tolkien, isn't it? If it really is,=
                              then it's in
                              overt contradiction to the appendices, where J.R.R. Tolkien says that all
                              additional letters but lambe and silme are modifications of other letters. =
                              This
                              wouldn't be the first contradiction in Tolkien's work, but such a contradic=
                              tion
                              must be judged on very carefully and not just be thrown away as plain
                              nonsense. Tell me at least a reason why you're ignoring the appendices.

                              But there are more questions, and more intersting ones: Why is the relation=

                              between hyarmen and yanta so similar to the relation between thúletyelle an=
                              d
                              óretyelle, e.g. between hwesta and vilya? In both cases we have a pair of a=

                              voiceless fricative and an approximate (the weakest consonant of its téma),=
                              in
                              both cases we have no doubling, in both cases the only difference in shape =
                              is
                              the raised "stem" of the former, vs a shortened one of the second. Such
                              interesting relations are totally ignored if you simply affirm that yanta i=
                              s copied
                              from the "alphabet of Rúmil".

                              > see/read Parma XIII, p. 88.

                              I'm sorry it's only a few time ago I've become aware that there's such a th=
                              ing
                              as parma, but it was way too late. And borrowing it is a very complicated t=
                              hing,
                              if you don't find any copy in your country.

                              suilaid
                              xeeniseit
                            • Gildor Inglorion
                              teithant xeeniseit ... parma 13 has been published over a year ago, and i m still waiting for some of its info incorporated to the known sites... even Amanye
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 13, 2003
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                                teithant xeeniseit

                                > > see/read Parma XIII, p. 88.
                                >
                                > I'm sorry it's only a few time ago I've become aware
                                > that there's such a th=
                                > ing
                                > as parma, but it was way too late. And borrowing it
                                > is a very complicated t=
                                > hing,
                                > if you don't find any copy in your country.

                                parma 13 has been published over a year ago, and i'm
                                still waiting for some of its info incorporated to the
                                known sites...

                                even Amanye Tenceli has been 'dead', promising that it
                                will incorporate the info from parma 13 'soon' :(

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                              • xeeniseit
                                ... Then I shouldn t ignore them either. The appendices say something interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant of harma. How is
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 13, 2003
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                                  teithant xeeniseit:
                                  > Tell me at least a reason why you're ignoring the appendices.

                                  Then I shouldn't ignore them either. The appendices say something
                                  interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant of
                                  harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the palatal fricative
                                  hy is to be considered a variant of the velar one? Etymologically? I can't judge
                                  on that, as I don't know about Quenya etymology. Phonetically? This would
                                  seem strange to me, but maybe possible, but I'd like to have more evidence
                                  on it.

                                  suilaid
                                  xeeniseit
                                • John Cowan
                                  ... Consider the alternation in German and other languages between [x] and [C], the velar and palatal fricatives. Near front vowels, as in ich , one gets the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 13, 2003
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                                    xeeniseit scripsit:

                                    > Then I shouldn't ignore them either. The appendices say something
                                    > interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant of
                                    > harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the palatal fricative
                                    > hy is to be considered a variant of the velar one? Etymologically? I can't judge
                                    > on that, as I don't know about Quenya etymology. Phonetically? This would
                                    > seem strange to me, but maybe possible, but I'd like to have more evidence
                                    > on it.

                                    Consider the alternation in German and other languages between [x] and [C], the
                                    velar and palatal fricatives. Near front vowels, as in "ich", one gets the palatal
                                    fricative; near back vowels, as in "ach", one gets the velar fricative.

                                    --
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                                    Once put the rest of us dowan. [on xml-dev]
                                    "Your verse would be sweeter http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                                    If it only had metre http://www.reutershealth.com
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                                  • DDanielA@webtv.net
                                    ... overt ... silme are modifications of other letters. It isn t really a contradiction. JRRT does indeed write that the additional letters (save lambe and
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 13, 2003
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                                      Teithant Alf:
                                      >Laurifindil teithant:
                                      > >The tengwa _yanta_ is just a copy of a sarat ;
                                      >I suppose this an explicit statement by Tolkien,
                                      >isn't it? If it really is, then it's in
                                      overt
                                      >contradiction to the appendices, where J.R.R.
                                      >Tolkien says that all additional letters but lambe and
                                      silme are modifications of other letters.

                                      It isn't really a contradiction. JRRT does indeed write that the
                                      additional letters (save lambe and silme) are "modifications of other
                                      letters", but note that he does not say "modifications of other
                                      Fëanorian tengwar." "Letters" could apply equally well to the sarati;
                                      they are also letters. JRRT also states in the appendix that the tengwar
                                      owed something to the letters of Rúmil. I had always assumed that this
                                      referred to things like arrangement and use of vowel diacriticals, but
                                      it could also apply to borrowing the shape of a sarat.

                                      >but such a contradiction not just be thrown
                                      >away as plain nonsense.

                                      Some people just happen to use an unfortunate choice of words.
                                      'Nonsense' is too strong a word, and inappropriate here.
                                      >Why is the relation between hyarmen and yanta
                                      >so similar to the relation between thúletyelle
                                      >and óretyelle, e.g. between hwesta and vilya? In
                                      >both cases we have a pair of a
                                      voiceless
                                      >fricative and an approximate (the weakest
                                      >consonant of its téma), in
                                      both
                                      >cases we have no doubling, in both cases the
                                      >only difference in shape is
                                      the raised
                                      >"stem" of the former, vs a shortened one of the
                                      >second.

                                      Good point. But of course the correspondence is not exact. In origin,
                                      hyarmen represented [hj]. Hwesta originally represented [xw] before the
                                      [x] was softened to [h]. But still an interesting observation! :)

                                      Cuio mae, Danny.
                                    • xeeniseit
                                      ... interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant of harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the palatal fricative hy
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 15, 2003
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                                        xeeniseit scripsit:
                                        > > Then I shouldn't ignore them either. The appendices say something
                                        interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant
                                        of harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the
                                        palatal fricative hy is to be considered a variant of the velar one?
                                        Etymologically? I can't judge on that, as I don't know about Quenya
                                        etymology. Phonetically? This would seem strange to me, but maybe
                                        possible, but I'd like to have more evidence on it.

                                        John Cowan responsit:
                                        > Consider the alternation in German and other languages between [x]
                                        and [C], the velar and palatal fricatives. Near front vowels, as
                                        in "ich", one gets the palatal fricative; near back vowels, as
                                        in "ach", one gets the velar fricative.

                                        Well known to me. And 3rd Age Quenya shows the same alternation with
                                        original ch between vowel and t (tehtar as "te-hy-tar", ohtar as "o-
                                        ch-tar"). But even though in that way, an original ch has become hy,
                                        there's also an original hy which -as far as I can see- has nothing
                                        to do with original ch. At least, both sounds occur in the same
                                        surroundings (e.g. at the beginning of a word before a: hyarmen,
                                        charma). But it depends (almost) entirely on the context whether you
                                        have German /x/ or /C/, and the same happens with Quenya vowel `+ ht:
                                        it depends on the preceding vowel.

                                        Danny teithant:
                                        > In origin, hyarmen represented [hj].

                                        This makes things even trickier! Even though I believe that by means
                                        of coarticulation, of connected speech (nobody pronounces isolate
                                        sounds), there's only a very short way from [hj] to [C]. But I have
                                        no idea how I can put together the ideas of hyarmen originally
                                        representing [hj] and being derived from charma as a weaker variant.

                                        But suppose that hyarmen originally represented /h/: Then its being a
                                        weaker variant of /ch/ wouldn't be problematic any longer. - But then
                                        there'd be a mess with the word 'original'. What is the most original
                                        tengwar mode? In internal history it must be Feanors mode, but we
                                        don't know it; in external history I suspect it's the English mode.
                                        And the h-ch stuff in an English mode makes more sense to me than the
                                        hy-ch stuff of Quenya!???

                                        Why is there more logic in the English mode than in the Quenya mode
                                        or in the mode of Beleriand?

                                        suilaid
                                        alf
                                      • xeeniseit
                                        ... interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant of harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the palatal fricative hy
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 15, 2003
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                                          xeeniseit scripsit:
                                          > > Then I shouldn't ignore them either. The appendices say something
                                          interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant
                                          of harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the
                                          palatal fricative hy is to be considered a variant of the velar one?
                                          Etymologically? I can't judge on that, as I don't know about Quenya
                                          etymology. Phonetically? This would seem strange to me, but maybe
                                          possible, but I'd like to have more evidence on it.

                                          John Cowan responsit:
                                          > Consider the alternation in German and other languages between [x]
                                          and [C], the velar and palatal fricatives. Near front vowels, as
                                          in "ich", one gets the palatal fricative; near back vowels, as
                                          in "ach", one gets the velar fricative.

                                          Well known to me. And 3rd Age Quenya shows the same alternation with
                                          original ch between vowel and t (tehtar as "te-hy-tar", ohtar as "o-
                                          ch-tar"). But even though in that way, an original ch has become hy,
                                          there's also an original hy which -as far as I can see- has nothing
                                          to do with original ch. At least, both sounds occur in the same
                                          surroundings (e.g. at the beginning of a word before a: hyarmen,
                                          charma). But it depends (almost) entirely on the context whether you
                                          have German /x/ or /C/, and the same happens with Quenya vowel `+ ht:
                                          it depends on the preceding vowel.

                                          Danny teithant:
                                          > In origin, hyarmen represented [hj].

                                          This makes things even trickier! Even though I believe that by means
                                          of coarticulation, of connected speech (nobody pronounces isolate
                                          sounds), there's only a very short way from [hj] to [C]. But I have
                                          no idea how I can put together the ideas of hyarmen originally
                                          representing [hj] and being derived from charma as a weaker variant.

                                          But suppose that hyarmen originally represented /h/: Then its being a
                                          weaker variant of /ch/ wouldn't be problematic any longer. - But then
                                          there'd be a mess with the word 'original'. What is the most original
                                          tengwar mode? In internal history it must be Feanors mode, but we
                                          don't know it; in external history I suspect it's the English mode.
                                          And the h-ch stuff in an English mode makes more sense to me than the
                                          hy-ch stuff of Quenya!???

                                          Why is there more logic in the English mode than in the Quenya mode
                                          or in the mode of Beleriand?

                                          suilaid
                                          alf
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