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A standard test document for tengwar fonts

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  • gildir_2
    Mellyn, I propose a little project. Something that would be very useful for tengwar font makers is a test page with tengwar text, so that a font maker can
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 21, 2003
      Mellyn,

      I propose a little project.

      Something that would be very useful for tengwar font makers
      is a test page with tengwar text, so that a font maker can
      verify that his font works and looks good in all practical
      cases.

      For example, the font must work with many combinations of
      tengwar + tehtar, and have a nice flow. The test should
      at minimum work for all modes in the guides at:

      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

      and also for all published tengwar specimina by Tolkien:

      http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html

      The test document should, I think, be on RTF format.
      (Not MS Word or some other proprietary format).

      The encoding should follow the de-facto standard set
      by Dan Smith, and used in the fonts 'Tengwar Parmaite',
      'Tengwar Cursive' and 'Tengwar Elfica'. (There may
      be others as well). I hope that any small differences
      in encoding between these fonts wouldn't pose a problem.
      (And if it does, that would be a good opportunity for
      the font makers to iron out their differences).

      Suilaid,
      Gildir, Per Lindberg
    • eemunsj
      Hi Gildir I agree with you that the fonts should be tested. I tested Elfica (I made it with the advice of Dan)with a lot of combinations and several examples,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 21, 2003
        Hi Gildir

        I agree with you that the fonts should be tested. I tested Elfica (I
        made it with the advice of Dan)with a lot of combinations and several
        examples, but I have only a few of the DTS published tengwar
        specimina themselves in order to check the font.
        Is there a collection of them in rtf or pdf format, and if so, where
        I find it? Thank you

        Enrombel, Enrique Mombello



        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "gildir_2" <gildir_2@y...> wrote:
        > Mellyn,
        >
        > I propose a little project.
        >
        > Something that would be very useful for tengwar font makers
        > is a test page with tengwar text, so that a font maker can
        > verify that his font works and looks good in all practical
        > cases.
        >
        > For example, the font must work with many combinations of
        > tengwar + tehtar, and have a nice flow. The test should
        > at minimum work for all modes in the guides at:
        >
        > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html
        >
        > and also for all published tengwar specimina by Tolkien:
        >
        > http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html
        >
        > The test document should, I think, be on RTF format.
        > (Not MS Word or some other proprietary format).
        >
        > The encoding should follow the de-facto standard set
        > by Dan Smith, and used in the fonts 'Tengwar Parmaite',
        > 'Tengwar Cursive' and 'Tengwar Elfica'. (There may
        > be others as well). I hope that any small differences
        > in encoding between these fonts wouldn't pose a problem.
        > (And if it does, that would be a good opportunity for
        > the font makers to iron out their differences).
        >
        > Suilaid,
        > Gildir, Per Lindberg
      • Karyn Traphagen
        ... Chris McKay (clmc3129@interlinklc.net) has an Index of Significant Samples in PDF format. It has several samples of JRRT s tengwar (and some of CJRT s
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 21, 2003
          > From: eemunsj I have only a few of the DTS published tengwar
          > specimina themselves in order to check the font.
          > Is there a collection of them in rtf or pdf format, and if
          > so, where I find it? Thank you
          >
          > Enrombel, Enrique Mombello

          Chris McKay (clmc3129@...) has an "Index of Significant
          Samples" in PDF format. It has several samples of JRRT's tengwar (and
          some of CJRT's also). It includes title page inscriptions, the Ring
          inscription, Doors of Durin, King's Letter, to name a few. I think if
          you asked Chris he would send you the Word format instead of PDF, or
          maybe he can even save it in RTF for you to use. His website is:
          http://www.geocities.com/tengwar2001/ where you can download the pdf.

          I hope that gets you started....Karyn
        • gildir_2
          Well, a test document need not include all the text in the entire DTS, of course. It should in fact be much more concise. But it is useful to have seen as many
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 22, 2003
            Well, a test document need not include all the text in the entire
            DTS, of course. It should in fact be much more concise. But it is
            useful to have seen as many as possible. (And I think that the CJRT
            samples can safely be ignored).

            Suilaid,
            Gildir, Per Lindberg
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... tehtar, and have a nice flow. Indeed. Two particular problems which I should like to see the font-makers address: 1. Tinco and rómen with two underposed
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 23, 2003
              Gildir wrote:

              > For example, the font must work with many combinations of tengwar +
              tehtar, and have a nice flow.

              Indeed. Two particular problems which I should like to see the font-makers
              address:

              1. Tinco and rómen with two underposed dots to express "ty" and "ry". All
              too often, the font-makers give us a product that has one of the dots
              merging into the tengwa itself.

              2. The combination "ea" in Quenya. Again, all too often I see the e-tehta
              partially merging with the a-tehta. Annoying! Really annoying!

              - HKF
            • eemunsj
              Hi Helge Please describe all key combinations that you consider are having problems and I´ll try to address them. The feedback is always good. The aim in
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 24, 2003
                Hi Helge

                Please describe all key combinations that you consider are having
                problems and I´ll try to address them. The feedback is always good.
                The aim in making Elfica was to reproduce the form of the letters in
                LOTR Appendix. For example, Tenwa romen in this Appendix does not
                allow an (correct placed)underposed double dot (I will post a scan of
                the letters written by Tolfien this week in the Files folder). If you
                want a correct placed double dot, you must modify the form. In a
                first stage I decided to keep the forms, but I´ll try to fix that.
                Dont dispair :)

                Enrique


                --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                > Gildir wrote:
                >
                > > For example, the font must work with many combinations of tengwar
                +
                > tehtar, and have a nice flow.
                >
                > Indeed. Two particular problems which I should like to see the font-
                makers
                > address:
                >
                > 1. Tinco and rómen with two underposed dots to express "ty"
                and "ry". All
                > too often, the font-makers give us a product that has one of the
                dots
                > merging into the tengwa itself.
                >
                > 2. The combination "ea" in Quenya. Again, all too often I see the e-
                tehta
                > partially merging with the a-tehta. Annoying! Really annoying!
                >
                > - HKF
              • xeeniseit
                Another particular problem with many tengwar fonts: The u-shaped version of anna is distinct from normal anna. It is required for one of my favoured Tolkien
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 25, 2003
                  Another particular problem with many tengwar fonts:

                  The u-shaped version of anna is distinct from normal anna.

                  It is required for one of my favoured Tolkien modes: The later
                  version of the phonetic mode, e.g. found on the Treebeard page.
                • Helge K. Fauskanger
                  ... placed)underposed double dot Well, in the Tengwar transcript of Namárie published in _The Road Goes Ever On_, Tolkien did use _rómen_ with two underposed
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 27, 2003
                    > For example, Tenwa romen in this Appendix does not allow an (correct
                    placed)underposed double dot

                    Well, in the Tengwar transcript of Namárie published in _The Road Goes Ever
                    On_, Tolkien did use _rómen_ with two underposed dots to spell _ry_ in the
                    word _ómaryo_ (most clearly seen at the top of page 70). RGEO was published
                    by Tolkien himself during his lifetime, so in principle it is just as
                    "canonical" as the LotR and its appendices.

                    The two dots are not really below the entire tengwa, but inside and to the
                    right of the downward curl. Tengwar fonts should be able to do the same.

                    - HKF
                  • eemunsj
                    Problem already fixed. New release to be posted soon. Fixing other problems with s-curls now. Thank you for helping me to fix the font mistakes. The last
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 28, 2003
                      Problem already fixed. New release to be posted soon.
                      Fixing other problems with s-curls now.
                      Thank you for helping me to fix the font mistakes.
                      The last question: You mentioned a problem with combination "ea" in
                      Quenya, but I don´t see any problem in Elfica (using the right
                      alternative tehta symbol). Did you found this problem in Elfica?
                      EEM




                      --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                      <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > For example, Tenwa romen in this Appendix does not allow an
                      (correct
                      > placed)underposed double dot
                      >
                      > Well, in the Tengwar transcript of Namárie published in _The Road
                      Goes Ever
                      > On_, Tolkien did use _rómen_ with two underposed dots to spell _ry_
                      in the
                      > word _ómaryo_ (most clearly seen at the top of page 70). RGEO was
                      published
                      > by Tolkien himself during his lifetime, so in principle it is just
                      as
                      > "canonical" as the LotR and its appendices.
                      >
                      > The two dots are not really below the entire tengwa, but inside
                      and to the
                      > right of the downward curl. Tengwar fonts should be able to do the
                      same.
                      >
                      > - HKF
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... Quenya, but I don´t see any problem in Elfica (using the right alternative tehta symbol). Did you found this problem in Elfica? Ehr...please tell me
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 8, 2003
                        eemunsj wrote:

                        > The last question: You mentioned a problem with combination "ea" in
                        Quenya, but I don´t see any problem in Elfica (using the right alternative
                        tehta symbol). Did you found this problem in Elfica?

                        Ehr...please tell me again, where can I download Elfica?

                        Incidentally, I finally managed to install Tengwar Cursive (I'm not very
                        good with computers, actually!) and the font as such is not bad, but
                        transcribing Quenya _nalye_ "thou art" (using TengScribe) I noticed that
                        the two dots signifying "y" are missing inside the bow of the Lambe (L).
                        Have others noticed this, or is it just my aging computer screwing up
                        things?

                        - HKF
                      • ErunámoLondëoronti
                        Hello Helge! Wow, what a feeling to help the guru himself! I have had so much fun reading and trying to understand your Quenya Course. I ve neglected my work
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 8, 2003
                          Hello Helge!

                          Wow, what a feeling to help the guru himself!
                          I have had so much fun reading and trying to
                          understand your Quenya Course. I've neglected my work
                          and my girlfriend because of you, you know... :)
                          And I have abolutely no experience with grammatical
                          terms, at all! So it's been hard but most wonderful.
                          Thank you so much!!! And here comes my gift back to
                          you (allthough really too small, but hey, I'm a
                          computer guy not a linguistic):

                          I brought up this problem a few days ago and had a
                          solution that no one complained about.

                          My solution became for Sillo iTj;Y with the letter j's
                          spacing
                          condensed with 3,5 pt and the character ;'s spacing
                          expanded with 3,5
                          pt (just to get the over-curl "Y" back into place).

                          For -lya I practically made the same changes but with
                          4,5 pt instead.

                          The condensing/expanding is of course variable, I used
                          the fontsize 56 pt for this example.

                          I'm sorry if this solution is a bit complicated but
                          hey, do like I do with Quenya: try try try, and don't
                          give up ;)

                          Best Regards
                          Erun�mo Lond�oronti

                          --- "Helge K. Fauskanger"
                          <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:
                          > eemunsj wrote:
                          >
                          > > The last question: You mentioned a problem with
                          > combination "ea" in
                          > Quenya, but I don�t see any problem in Elfica (using
                          > the right alternative
                          > tehta symbol). Did you found this problem in Elfica?
                          >
                          > Ehr...please tell me again, where can I download
                          > Elfica?
                          >
                          > Incidentally, I finally managed to install Tengwar
                          > Cursive (I'm not very
                          > good with computers, actually!) and the font as such
                          > is not bad, but
                          > transcribing Quenya _nalye_ "thou art" (using
                          > TengScribe) I noticed that
                          > the two dots signifying "y" are missing inside the
                          > bow of the Lambe (L).
                          > Have others noticed this, or is it just my aging
                          > computer screwing up
                          > things?
                          >
                          > - HKF
                          >


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                        • elimloth
                          ... but ... noticed that ... Lambe (L). ... It is a bug in the cursive font. Dan Smith s fonts offer several versions of the same tehta with different
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 9, 2003
                            "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@n...> wrote:
                            > [...] I finally managed to install Tengwar Cursive (I'm not very
                            > good with computers, actually!) and the font as such is not bad,
                            but
                            > transcribing Quenya _nalye_ "thou art" (using TengScribe) I
                            noticed that
                            > the two dots signifying "y" are missing inside the bow of the
                            Lambe (L).
                            > Have others noticed this, [...]

                            It is a bug in the cursive font. Dan Smith's fonts offer several
                            versions of the same tehta with different horizontal and vertical
                            relative alignments. A good transcription mode takes advantage of
                            these variants to best place the tehta over different tengwar or
                            within certain tengwar (like Lambe). The cursive font does not
                            implement all the variant tehta, so they go missing.

                            Elimloth
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