[elfscript] Cirth

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• ... I knew that.... :-) Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2;
Message 1 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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Ar 13:47 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
>Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN.

I knew that.... :-)

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• ... http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don t you? Circumflex, underscore, and dot below? The circumflex mark
Message 2 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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Ar 13:44 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
>I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7
>in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively.

http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

Circumflex, underscore, and dot below?

The circumflex mark is used in Cirth to indicate nasalization.
The underscore/macron below is used in Cirth to indicate length.
The dot below is used in Cirth to indicate numeric value of a rune.

What about the punctuation? Ken Whistler will kill us if we add yet another
MIDDLE DOT. Runic has a single and a multiple dot separator, but Cirth
definitely has one, two, three, and four dots, and I don't really favour

>The choice between U+0331 and U+0332 depends on whether length marks
>applying to consecutive runes are merged into a single long line
>or not. If so, U+0332 is appropriate; if not, or if the evidence is

I can't remember seeing examples of the length mark. Anyone?

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• Hei Måns, ... For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you
Message 3 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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Hei Måns,

>Actually, the "competing" proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T.
>Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of input. As I have
>not studied the principles of Unicode in great detail, I don't feel
>qualified to come up with a proposal of my own, and I shall be more than
>happy to lend my aid to that of Mr. Everson.

For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you
think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you see my
amazing contribution.

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• ... Yes. I was looking at N1642 instead of your most recent version. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan
Message 4 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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Michael Everson wrote:

> Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

--

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
• OK, folks, the draft is available at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is
Message 5 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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OK, folks, the draft is available at
http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf

It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:

1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

2. Do not worry about the order of the characters in the table right now.
Ordering is irrelevant to the UCS character set encoding, and we can settle
on the aesthetics of the table layout LATER.

3. Do not worry too much about the character names right now. We do need to
discuss them and settle on good ones, but they're less important than Rule
4.

4. We need to determine whether the character set is complete or not. Are
there characters missing? Are there characters which are duplicates of each
other and should be unified? Are there characters which are unified and
should be differentiated? Do we have citations for EACH character we encode?

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• ... I m not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that the underlying
Message 6 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

> OK, folks, the draft is available at
> http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf
>
> It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
represent different modes in plaintext.

apart from that...

xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :

"When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
/tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
was like an undotted i."

xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.

I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

--
Robert
"Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other
nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on
indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998.
• ... You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E nelde , N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I neltildi and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N SILMARILLION. But Sindarin would be
Message 7 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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Ar 20:01 +0100 2000-04-13, scríobh Robert Brady:

>I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
>font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
>the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
>to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
>same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
>words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E 'nelde',
N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I 'neltildi' and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N 'SILMARILLION. But
Sindarin would be incorrectly represented: N-L-E-D-E 'neled', NLEThLI
'nelthil', and S-L-I-V-R-A-L~-I-X-I-R-O 'SILMARILLION'.

>This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
>represent different modes in plaintext.

Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:

Quenya N´LD´ 'nelde', N´LT·Ld· 'neltildi'
Sindarin N´L´D 'neled', N´LTh·L 'nelThil'

Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

And the alternative would be expensive inputting software to meet Sindarin
or English expectations. This is what you'd have to do to meet the user's
"underlying spelling" expectations, which they probably want to use on
inputting because it is lots easier.

>apart from that...
>
> xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :
>
> "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
> /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
> was like an undotted i."

Oops, that's an error in the names list. xx2D isn't the short charrier, it
is halla. The short carrier is xx2E. So I don't have the attestation for
halla yet.

> xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
> Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.
>
>I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

Apparently it was Quettar 13 and 14, but I do not have these. (I need them.)

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• ... Ok. That convinces me. I m just concerned about the complexity, as it is not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so it
Message 8 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

> Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
> you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
> get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:
>
> Quenya N�LD� 'nelde', N�LT�Ld� 'neltildi'
> Sindarin N�L�D 'neled', N�LTh�L 'nelThil'
>
> Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
> to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

--
Robert
• ... It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won t really get encoded until we have in implementation font. I m concerned about whether I got the Old
Message 9 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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Ar 18:56 +0100 2000-04-14, scríobh Robert Brady:

>Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
>not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
>it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
>operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won't really get encoded
until we have in implementation font. I'm concerned about whether I got the
Old English vowel encoding right.

>Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
>approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

While they hiss and spit at Klingon, the feeling does seem to be that
Tengwar and Cirth are legitimate scripts for encoding. (Not that this was a
reason I proposed Klingon along with Tengwar and Cirth, oh my no....)

Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
• ... They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand. What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal. -- Schlingt dreifach
Message 10 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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> Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
> approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand.
What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal.

--

Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
• http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/ http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
Message 11 of 19 , Dec 15, 2001
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http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/

http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html

For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
Tengwar..

I do know that many of the lingos of India, and SE and to a degree NE
of India are based on fully or partially on the script that Sanskrit
used.. Some are harder to tell the origin, especially by the time you
get to Java and their script is very curvy.

Mike
• Hi, I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each
Message 12 of 19 , Jan 13, 2004
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Hi,
I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each transcribed into Tengwar (and actually, if anyone has time, could you check the translations I have - I am almost positive they're right, but you never know). I have tried in so many different places to transcribe these or download a font, but nothing I am doing seems to work. If any of you can help me, or tell me what I can do to do it myself, I would be incredibly grateful. Thanks! The phrase is �see my pain�, here are the translations I already have.
Quenya - � cen� nwalmenya or c�n� naicenya
Sindarian - ceno naeg n�n. or ceno i naeg n�n.

Once again, Thank you!

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