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precise rules for writing quenya with tengwar

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  • Jeremie Knusel
    Hello, Here is a list of all difficulties and alternatives I ve found in writing Quenya with the tengwar (thanks to Måns Björkman for his help). Could you
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 13 8:12 AM
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      Hello,

      Here is a list of all difficulties and alternatives I've found in writing
      Quenya with the tengwar (thanks to Måns Björkman for his help). Could you
      look at it and tell if you have any comment or idea (also if you see other
      difficulties that are not listed)?

      Thanks,

      Jeremie Knusel



      Halla:
      -before 'l' or 'r' ('hr' and 'hl' occur virtually always word-initially)
      -'r' could be rómen as well as óre
      -the special case of ohlon would be written with halla too

      Hyarmen:
      -for any 'h' word-initially (except for 'hl' and 'hr')
      -anywhere in the word for 'hy', which would be written with hyarmen and two
      dots below (like in 'ahyane')

      Harma (or aha):
      -for any 'h' that would not be written with halla or hyarmen : in the word,
      when no 'r', 'l' or 'y' is following (like in 'ohtar')

      Thúle:
      -for 'th'
      -for 's' if it was previously 'th'
      -one should never have to use silme after 'r' (because 'rs' -> 'ss' and
      'rth' -> 'rs')
      -it seems that original 's' never occurs between two vowels, or a vowel and
      a semi-vowel, so in these cases one should use thúle

      Aze (or áre or esse):
      -for 'z', which should not occur in modern Quenya
      -for 'ss' in modern Quenya, else use double-slime

      Noldo:
      -only word-initially, for 'ñ' and for 'n' that was previously 'ñ' (only
      word-initially because one would use anga, ungwe, anca, unque or ñwalme
      inside the word)

      Rómen:
      -for 'r', when a vowel comes after (short or long)
      -always for 'rr' and 'ry', since after such a cluster there can only be a
      vowel
      -in any other case, use óre

      Vilya:
      -for 'w'
      -for 'v' if it was previously 'w'

      Commonly used alternatives:
      -double tehta instead of a long carrier
      -short carrier instead of a tehta
      -silme/esse nuquerna instead of silme/esse (usually used when there is a
      tehta)
      -no tehta for 'a', but a dot below the tengwa when there is no tehta and
      that it doesn't mean that there is a 'a'
      -númen for 'n' even when it was previously 'ñ'
      -silme for 's' even when it was previously 'th'
      -vala for 'v' even when it was previously 'w'
      -s-curls for 'ts', 'ps' and 'cs' (often written 'x')
      -a tilde bellow the tengwa of a double-consonant instead of two same tengwar
      -a tilde above a tengwa preceded by 'n', 'm' or 'ñ' (and so no tengwa for
      the 'n', 'm' or 'ñ')
    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT s tengwar specimens surface. Here s where my opinions differ from the ones Jeremie
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 13 9:30 AM
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        Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT's
        tengwar specimens surface. Here's where my opinions differ from the ones
        Jeremie presented.

        Halla: We have no clear-cut rule. Professor Tolkien's only reference to
        the 'halla' suggests that it might not have survived into later Quenya
        in any rôle. His use of the word 'original' is vague. It's possible
        that 'hr' and 'hl' were written 'hyarmen rómen' and 'hyarmen lambe' in
        the Third Age. It's possible that there were other alternatives. We
        don't know. Personally, I doubt the validity of using 'rómen nuquerna'
        and 'lambe nuquerna' as I've seen some do to represent 'hr' and 'hl'.
        Anyone's opinion of how 'hr' and 'hl' were represented in tengwar in the
        Third Age is conjecture, not dogmatic assertion.

        Hyarmen: For any word initially? Not so! We have Professor Tolkien's own
        statement that 'harma' sometimes represented an 'h' initially and was
        then called 'aha'. The initial 'h' in the word 'harma' was, in fact, a
        'harma' (or, rather 'aha', but of course it's the same tengwa!), not
        'hyarmen'.

        Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
        phoneme.

        Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
        medially. This would be as a simple nasal 'ñ' between vowels when not
        followed by a velar consonant or 'w'. (English example: 'noldo' = the
        'ng' in 'singer', 'anga' = the 'ng' in 'finger'.)

        Short carrier instead of a tehta? In Quenya, a short carrier must always
        be accompanied by a tehta unless the writer omits the tehta for 'a', in
        which case the tehta would be 'empty'. In other language modes, an empty
        short carrier can represent the vowel 'i', but we're speaking of the
        writing of Quenya.

        A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
        was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
        combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
        anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?

        There is one final vagary: 'anna'. We know that 'anna' must be
        accompanied by two under-imposed dots to represent the sound 'y' ( or
        IPA [j]), and that 'anna' alone must have a rôle of a carrier of
        sorts. Måns uses 'anna' + accent tehta as the first letter of the word
        'ëar' in his calligraphy rendition of the Markirya Boat Poem (btw, a
        beautifully rendered manuscript, Måns!), but is this attested, or
        simply used to avoid writing two short carriers together? Do we have any
        information about the use of 'anna' without the dots? Apparently the
        word 'anna' begins with the tengwa of that name.

        Just my thoughts! Cuio mae, Danny.
      • Jeremie Knusel
        ... But since it was renamed to aha, wouldn t that mean that words previously written with harma as first tengwa (like harma) became written with hyarmen? ...
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 13 12:59 PM
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          > Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT's
          > tengwar specimens surface. Here's where my opinions differ from the ones
          > Jeremie presented.
          >
          > Halla: We have no clear-cut rule. Professor Tolkien's only reference to
          > the 'halla' suggests that it might not have survived into later Quenya
          > in any rôle. His use of the word 'original' is vague. It's possible
          > that 'hr' and 'hl' were written 'hyarmen rómen' and 'hyarmen lambe' in
          > the Third Age. It's possible that there were other alternatives. We
          > don't know. Personally, I doubt the validity of using 'rómen nuquerna'
          > and 'lambe nuquerna' as I've seen some do to represent 'hr' and 'hl'.
          > Anyone's opinion of how 'hr' and 'hl' were represented in tengwar in the
          > Third Age is conjecture, not dogmatic assertion.
          >
          > Hyarmen: For any word initially? Not so! We have Professor Tolkien's own
          > statement that 'harma' sometimes represented an 'h' initially and was
          > then called 'aha'. The initial 'h' in the word 'harma' was, in fact, a
          > 'harma' (or, rather 'aha', but of course it's the same tengwa!), not
          > 'hyarmen'.

          But since it was renamed to aha, wouldn't that mean that words previously
          written with harma as first tengwa (like harma) became written with hyarmen?

          > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
          > phoneme.

          Yes but if for example one writes a text about evolution of sounds, etc...
          :) This rule should not be necessary, but it isn't false is it?

          > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
          > medially. This would be as a simple nasal 'ñ' between vowels when not
          > followed by a velar consonant or 'w'. (English example: 'noldo' = the
          > 'ng' in 'singer', 'anga' = the 'ng' in 'finger'.)

          Ok I didn't know that there were words with 'ñ' medially, followed by a
          vowel... do you have some examples ?

          > Short carrier instead of a tehta? In Quenya, a short carrier must always
          > be accompanied by a tehta unless the writer omits the tehta for 'a', in
          > which case the tehta would be 'empty'. In other language modes, an empty
          > short carrier can represent the vowel 'i', but we're speaking of the
          > writing of Quenya.

          I meant: a short carrier with tehta on it instead of the tehta directly one
          the tengwa of a consonant :)

          > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
          > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
          > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
          > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?

          I thought it could be an alternative for any consonant preceded by a
          nasal... (a freedom for the scribe)


          Jeremie
        • Angasule
          ... I d use only rómen in this case, since it s an initial r, still I don t have any more base to it :) ... ohloni (the attested plural, I don t know if the
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 13 3:54 PM
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            Jeremie Knusel wrote:
            >
            > Hello,
            >
            > Here is a list of all difficulties and alternatives I've found in writing
            > Quenya with the tengwar (thanks to Måns Björkman for his help). Could you
            > look at it and tell if you have any comment or idea (also if you see other
            > difficulties that are not listed)?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Jeremie Knusel
            >
            > Halla:
            > -before 'l' or 'r' ('hr' and 'hl' occur virtually always word-initially)
            > -'r' could be rómen as well as óre
            I'd use only rómen in this case, since it's an initial r, still I don't
            have any more base to it :)

            > -the special case of ohlon would be written with halla too
            ohloni (the attested plural, I don't know if the singular has been
            attested, it could as well be ohlone, couldn't it?) is I guess the
            prefix o- plus the word hloni.

            >
            > Hyarmen:
            > -for any 'h' word-initially (except for 'hl' and 'hr')
            > -anywhere in the word for 'hy', which would be written with hyarmen and two
            > dots below (like in 'ahyane')
            >
            > Harma (or aha):
            > -for any 'h' that would not be written with halla or hyarmen : in the word,
            > when no 'r', 'l' or 'y' is following (like in 'ohtar')
            What about ht? with harma, too? I like writing it with hyarmen (no
            special reason but the looks).

            > Thúle:
            > -for 'th'
            > -for 's' if it was previously 'th'
            > -one should never have to use silme after 'r' (because 'rs' -> 'ss' and
            > 'rth' -> 'rs')
            > -it seems that original 's' never occurs between two vowels, or a vowel and
            > a semi-vowel, so in these cases one should use thúle
            That's right, it didn't. Quoting from my own page (I'm too lazy to
            rewrite :) ): "Silme can't go between two vowels or a vowel and a
            semivowel, or after 'r' (since original 'rs' > 'ss', while original
            'rth' > 'rs'). st, sty, squ, sc are written with silme. ps, ts, cs are
            written with the 's' curl."

            > Noldo:
            > -only word-initially, for 'ñ' and for 'n' that was previously 'ñ' (only
            > word-initially because one would use anga, ungwe, anca, unque or ñwalme
            > inside the word)
            nwalme is also used only initially.

            > Rómen:
            > -for 'r', when a vowel comes after (short or long)
            > -always for 'rr' and 'ry', since after such a cluster there can only be a
            > vowel
            > -in any other case, use óre
            I'd also use r before w, following the rule of using rómen between
            vowels or between a vowel and a semivowel.

            > Commonly used alternatives:
            > -double tehta instead of a long carrier
            > -short carrier instead of a tehta
            > -silme/esse nuquerna instead of silme/esse (usually used when there is a
            > tehta)
            > -no tehta for 'a', but a dot below the tengwa when there is no tehta and
            > that it doesn't mean that there is a 'a'
            A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
            mention/use it?
            Angasule
          • Angasule
            ... In his description he mentions old uses, so indeed, thúle for th, and súle for s
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 13 3:54 PM
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              DDanielA@... wrote:
              >
              > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
              > phoneme.
              In his description he mentions old uses, so indeed, thúle for th, and
              súle for s < th :)

              > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
              > medially. This would be as a simple nasal 'ñ' between vowels when not
              > followed by a velar consonant or 'w'. (English example: 'noldo' = the
              > 'ng' in 'singer', 'anga' = the 'ng' in 'finger'.)
              ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are not the same thing! in anga it's two
              sounds, in ngoldo it's one; in fact the first consonant sound in anga is
              the sound in ngoldo...

              > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
              > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
              > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
              > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?
              I think as he says that it can be used for extra freedom for those
              consonant clusters that can be written as single tengwar, and also for
              'nv' and other such clusters.
              Angasule
            • DDanielA@webtv.net
              Jeremie Knusel deithant: But since it was renamed to aha, wouldn t that mean that words previously written harma as first tengwa (like harma) became written
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 13 7:44 PM
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                Jeremie Knusel deithant:

                But since it was renamed to aha,
                wouldn't that mean that words
                previously written harma as first
                tengwa (like harma) became
                written with hyarmen?

                I don't think so. Tolkien said that 'harma', not 'hyarmen', was renamed
                'aha' as an initial tengwa. Why would he bother telling us what name
                'harma' had when it occurred initially if it didn't occur initially?

                Ok I didn't know that there were
                words with 'ñ' medially, followed
                by a vowel...

                Again, refer to JRRT himself. He refers to 'noldo' having the sound 'n'
                initially while retaining the sound 'ñ' medially. Again, why would
                this tengwa retain the 'ñ' sound medially if it, indeed, did not
                occur medially?

                About 'thúle' = 'th'...Okay, it's fine for historical purposes. I
                thought we were discussing Quenya in the Third Age! ;)

                A nasal sign in Quenya...I suppose it's a possibility.

                Angasule deithant:

                ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are
                not the same thing!

                Whoa! I did NOT say they were the same thing! Reread my English example.
                The 'ng' in 'singer' = 'ñ' (noldo), but the 'ng' in 'finger' = 'ñg'
                (anga). These two words do not properly rhyme in English because
                'singer' has a simple nasal, but 'finger' has a nasal + a velar
                consonant. How did you infer that I was saying they were the same? And
                you're right: the first consonant sound in 'anga' is 'ñ', but since
                it's 'ñ' + 'g', it's written with the tengwa 'anga'.

                What about ht? With harma. too?

                I think so. JRRT tells us that 'ht' has the sound [xt] (IPA
                reprsentation). 'Harma' can have the sound [x]; in fact, that was its
                original sound. I have seen no indication that 'hyarmen' ever
                represented any phoneme other than [h] or, earlier, [hj]. In addition,
                in his Old English mode, he used 'harma/tinco' and 'hwesta/tinco'
                ligatures to represent the [xt] sound written 'ht'. I realise that Old
                English is not Quenya, but he observes Quenya usage in several instances
                in this mode.

                One additional curiosity of Quenya: The combination 'lv' (as in
                'omentielvo') was often written 'lambe umbar', especially by elves. From
                LotR, Appendix E.

                I'm sure we all look forward to additional tengwar works of JRRT to come
                to light so that these questions can be answered by the inventor of
                Quenya!

                Namárië! Danny.
              • Angasule
                ... Does he say that? Can you quote? I lent my lotr, and it s in spanish anyway (they sometimes don t translate whole phrases :/ ). The sound ñ by itself
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 13 8:52 PM
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                  DDanielA@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Ok I didn't know that there were
                  > words with 'ñ' medially, followed
                  > by a vowel...
                  >
                  > Again, refer to JRRT himself. He refers to 'noldo' having the sound 'n'
                  > initially while retaining the sound 'ñ' medially. Again, why would
                  > this tengwa retain the 'ñ' sound medially if it, indeed, did not
                  > occur medially?
                  Does he say that? Can you quote? I lent my lotr, and it's in spanish
                  anyway (they sometimes don't translate whole phrases :/ ). The sound ñ
                  by itself doesn't occur medially in Quenya outside of clusters, AFAIK.

                  > Angasule deithant:
                  >
                  > ng in anga and ng in ngoldo are
                  > not the same thing!
                  >
                  > Whoa! I did NOT say they were the same thing! Reread my English example.
                  > The 'ng' in 'singer' = 'ñ' (noldo), but the 'ng' in 'finger' = 'ñg'
                  > (anga). These two words do not properly rhyme in English because
                  > 'singer' has a simple nasal, but 'finger' has a nasal + a velar
                  > consonant. How did you infer that I was saying they were the same? And
                  > you're right: the first consonant sound in 'anga' is 'ñ', but since
                  > it's 'ñ' + 'g', it's written with the tengwa 'anga'.
                  AFAIK, noldo was never used medially, although the sound ñ did in the
                  clusters ng, nk, ngw, nqu, for each of which a tengwa exists and in any
                  case if they weren't written with their own tengwa they'd be written as
                  k + nasal bar or qu + nasal bar rather than noldo + k or noldo + qu
                  which would be a clumsy construction. Btw, I'm not a native english
                  speaker and don't know if you are one, either, didn't know there was a
                  difference between singer and finger, email is not the best place to
                  talk about phonetics anyway :)
                  Angasule
                • Jeremie Knusel
                  ... I can t find where I saw it but as example, in the dictionnaire des langues elfiques , p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of menelluin irildeo
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 14 2:57 AM
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                    > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
                    > mention/use it?

                    I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des langues
                    elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
                    ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the last
                    'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
                  • Jeremie Knusel
                    ... In appendix E, it s said: Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all positions, but when this sound became breath h initially
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 14 3:52 AM
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                      > I don't think so. Tolkien said that 'harma', not 'hyarmen', was renamed
                      > 'aha' as an initial tengwa. Why would he bother telling us what name
                      > 'harma' had when it occurred initially if it didn't occur initially?

                      In appendix E, it's said:
                      "Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all
                      positions, but when this sound became breath h initially (though remaining
                      medially) the name aha was devised"

                      I understand that harma was no longer used to write the word harma (for
                      example), since the sound became breath h, and so it was not logical to use
                      the name harma for this tengwa, so it's name was changed to aha, which is
                      still written with harma

                      in the footnote:
                      "For breath h Quenya originally used a simple raised stem without bow,
                      called halla 'tall'. This could be placed before a consonant to indicate
                      that it was unvoiced and breathed; voiceless r and l were usually so
                      expressed and are transcribed hr, hl. Later 33 was used for independent h,
                      and the value of hy (its older value) was represented by adding the tehta
                      for following y"

                      Here I understand that when harma could no longer represent the h, because
                      it was pronunced as a breath h, it was replaced by hyarmen (which was
                      previously used just to represent a kind of ich-laut sound. when it became
                      necessary, word-initially, to know that it represented ich-laut (written
                      'hy') and not breath h, one added two dots bellow)

                      > One additional curiosity of Quenya: The combination 'lv' (as in
                      > 'omentielvo') was often written 'lambe umbar', especially by elves. From
                      > LotR, Appendix E.

                      Thanks, I had not noticed that :)

                      > I'm sure we all look forward to additional tengwar works of JRRT to come
                      > to light so that these questions can be answered by the inventor of
                      > Quenya!

                      Yes... do one know anything about future publications?


                      Jeremie
                    • DDanielA@webtv.net
                      Angasule deithant: Does he say that? Can you quote? … The sound ñ by itself doesn t occur medially in Quenya outside of clusters, AFAIK I wish I remembered
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 14 4:38 PM
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                        Angasule deithant:

                        Does he say that? Can you
                        quote? … The sound ñ by itself
                        doesn't occur medially in
                        Quenya outside of clusters,
                        AFAIK

                        I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                        verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                        a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.

                        Btw, I'm not a native english
                        speaker and don't know if you
                        are one, either … email is not
                        the best place to talk about
                        phonetics anyway :)

                        Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Actually, I was brought up
                        speaking English, French and modern Greek. But I was speaking as a
                        linguistics major on the difference between 'ñ' and 'ñg', not as a
                        native-speaking casual observer. I agree that e-mail is not the best
                        place to talk about phonetics, but it's all we have, and the evolution
                        of Quenya orthography is bound up with phonetics. It's hard to talk
                        about one without bringing up the other.

                        Jeremie Knusel deithant:
                        I understand that harma was
                        no longer used to write the word
                        harma (for example), since the
                        sound became breath h, and so
                        it was not logical to use the name
                        harma for this tengwa, so it's
                        name was changed to aha,
                        which is still written with harma.

                        So we are to disregard Professor Tolkien when he said that initial 'aha'
                        (= 'harma')
                        has the sound of simple [h]? I tend to take Tolkien as his word, and
                        nowhere did he say that all words beginning with 'harma' should change
                        their spelling to 'hyarmen'.
                        What he did say is that when words beginning with 'harma' began to be
                        pronounced with a breath 'h', the name of the tengwa was changed to
                        'aha' to reflect the difference in pronunciation. If 'harma'/'aha' can
                        be pronounced as [h]... and JRRT stated that it could... why would one
                        need to change the spelling?

                        Again, there are bound to be differences in opinion, and I can only
                        present what I understand the scant written evidence to mean. Any of us
                        can be mistaken...

                        Namárië! Danny.
                      • Angasule
                        ... Is the ui written as a diphthong or how? If there s just an u tehta then the underdot could be the previous i ? If not it must be a final e as Ales
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
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                          Jeremie Knusel wrote:
                          >
                          > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did Tolkien
                          > > mention/use it?
                          >
                          > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des langues
                          > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
                          > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the last
                          > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
                          Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
                          then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
                          as Ales Bican said.
                          Angasule
                        • Angasule
                          ... Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ- remained so and
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 15 12:05 AM
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                            DDanielA@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Angasule deithant:
                            >
                            > Does he say that? Can you
                            > quote? … The sound ñ by itself
                            > doesn't occur medially in
                            > Quenya outside of clusters,
                            > AFAIK
                            >
                            > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                            > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                            > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
                            Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
                            augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
                            remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
                            Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
                            dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

                            > Yes, I am a native speaker of English. Actually, I was brought up
                            > speaking English, French and modern Greek. But I was speaking as a
                            > linguistics major on the difference between 'ñ' and 'ñg', not as a
                            > native-speaking casual observer.
                            But the confusion was in the English example :) I always prefer using
                            final written -ng to exemplify ñ.
                            Angasule
                          • Jeremie Knusel
                            ... Tolkien ... langues ... last ... There is a u tehta above lambe, and a i tehta on a short carrier Jeremie
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 15 3:32 AM
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                              > > > A dot below the tengwa? I hadn't read about this one, where did
                              Tolkien
                              > > > mention/use it?
                              > >
                              > > I can't find where I saw it but as example, in the "dictionnaire des
                              langues
                              > > elfiques", p. 113, there is a tengwar transcribe of "menelluin irildeo
                              > > ondolindello" that comes from "Tolkien, Life and Legend" p 77, and the
                              last
                              > > 'n' of menelluin is written with númen and a dot bellow
                              > Is the 'ui' written as a diphthong or how? If there's just an 'u' tehta
                              > then the underdot could be the previous 'i'? If not it must be a final e
                              > as Ales Bican said.
                              > Angasule

                              There is a 'u' tehta above lambe, and a 'i' tehta on a short carrier

                              Jeremie
                            • Jeremie Knusel
                              ... To take Tolkien as his word, he didn t talk about initial aha but about initial breath h ... I give the quote again: Thus No. 11 was called harma when
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 15 4:03 AM
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                                > So we are to disregard Professor Tolkien when he said that initial 'aha'
                                > (= 'harma')
                                > has the sound of simple [h]? I tend to take Tolkien as his word, and
                                > nowhere did he say that all words beginning with 'harma' should change
                                > their spelling to 'hyarmen'.
                                > What he did say is that when words beginning with 'harma' began to be
                                > pronounced with a breath 'h', the name of the tengwa was changed to
                                > 'aha' to reflect the difference in pronunciation. If 'harma'/'aha' can
                                > be pronounced as [h]... and JRRT stated that it could... why would one
                                > need to change the spelling?

                                To take Tolkien as his word, he didn't talk about "initial aha" but about
                                "initial breath h"... I give the quote again:
                                "Thus No. 11 was called harma when it represented the spirant ch in all
                                positions, but when this sound became breath h initially (though remaining
                                medially) the name aha was devised"

                                I agree that it's not clear. If there were only the first sentence (before
                                the coma), I would understand that there was a time where harma represented
                                [x] in all positions, then logicaly a time where it represented [x] in some
                                positions and an other sound in another position. But with just this
                                sentence, it could also be understood that first harma was used in all
                                position (to represent [x]) and then that it was no longer used in all
                                position, because a tengwa would have replaced harma in some special
                                position (e.g. initially). That is what I understand, because of the other
                                sentences:

                                First, why would it be necessary to change the name of the tengwa, if it was
                                used to represend both [x] and breath h? Keeping the name 'harma' would as
                                well represent the breath-h function of the tengwa 'harma' as the name 'aha'
                                would represent the [x] function of the same tengwa...
                                So it seems logical to me that if the elves decided to use the name 'aha',
                                whose 'h' is still pronunced [x], it was because
                                tengwa harma=[x] and not breath h.

                                Now the only remaining problem is: "if harma, or rather aha, could no longer
                                be used to write initial 'h', how was it written?"
                                And this problem is solved by the footnote:
                                "Later 33 was used for independent h,
                                and the value of hy (its older value) was represented by adding the tehta
                                for following y"

                                So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
                                add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
                                every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
                                sorry)

                                I hope this text is not too confused...


                                Jeremie
                              • Jeremie Knusel
                                ... Right, about that I was given the example ñolmo - lambengolmo Jeremie
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 15 4:09 AM
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                                  > > Angasule deithant:
                                  > >
                                  > > Does he say that? Can you
                                  > > quote? . The sound ñ by itself
                                  > > doesn't occur medially in
                                  > > Quenya outside of clusters,
                                  > > AFAIK
                                  > >
                                  > > I wish I remembered where I read it. But anyway initial 'noldo' of any
                                  > > verb beginning with that letter becomes a medial 'ñ' when preceded by
                                  > > a perfect verbal augment. That's simple logic.
                                  > Since words that begin with noldo come from original ng-, with an
                                  > augment they would go from ñ- to augment-ng-. In case original ñ-
                                  > remained so and didn't change to h- (see the mail I answered to Ales
                                  > Bican about this) there still wouldn't be initial ñ, since medial ñ
                                  > dissapeared lengthening the previous vowel.

                                  Right, about that I was given the example "ñolmo -> lambengolmo"


                                  Jeremie
                                • Mans Bjorkman
                                  Hello people! Sorry I m late. ... Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always be written with , if the system of the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 16 1:17 AM
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                                    Hello people! Sorry I'm late.

                                    Jeremie Knusel wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Halla:
                                    > -before 'l' or 'r' ('hr' and 'hl' occur virtually always word-initially)
                                    > -'r' could be rómen as well as óre

                                    Since _hr_ must always be followed by a vowel I think _r_ would always
                                    be written with <rómen>, if the system of the Namárie inscription is
                                    followed.


                                    > -a tilde above a tengwa preceded by 'n', 'm' or 'ñ' (and so no tengwa for
                                    > the 'n', 'm' or 'ñ')

                                    This actually occurs in some Quenya inscriptions, but they generally
                                    seem to be influenced by Westron or Sindarin conventions.


                                    --
                                    Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                                    Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                                    SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                                    Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                                  • Mans Bjorkman
                                    ... Quite true. However, I strongly believe was, at least, a valid alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: ... [halla] could be placed
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 16 2:05 AM
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                                      DDanielA@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well, there are bound to be differences of opinion until more of JRRT's
                                      > tengwar specimens surface. Here's where my opinions differ from the ones
                                      > Jeremie presented.
                                      >
                                      > Halla: We have no clear-cut rule. Professor Tolkien's only reference to
                                      > the 'halla' suggests that it might not have survived into later Quenya
                                      > in any rôle. His use of the word 'original' is vague. It's possible
                                      > that 'hr' and 'hl' were written 'hyarmen rómen' and 'hyarmen lambe' in
                                      > the Third Age. It's possible that there were other alternatives. We
                                      > don't know.

                                      Quite true. However, I strongly believe <halla> was, at least, a valid
                                      alternative still in the Third Age. The footnote says: "... [halla]
                                      could be placed before a consonant to indicate that it was unvoiced and
                                      breathed; voiceless _r_ and _l_ were usually so expressed and are
                                      transcribed _hr_, _hl_." I can only interpret this as saying that some
                                      of Tolkien's sources actually used <halla> + r/l, which in The Lord of
                                      the Rings is transcribed _hr_, _hl_.


                                      > Personally, I doubt the validity of using 'rómen nuquerna'
                                      > and 'lambe nuquerna' as I've seen some do to represent 'hr' and 'hl'.

                                      I agree. There is no support for this whatsoever in the sources.


                                      > Hyarmen: For any word initially? Not so! We have Professor Tolkien's own
                                      > statement that 'harma' sometimes represented an 'h' initially and was
                                      > then called 'aha'. The initial 'h' in the word 'harma' was, in fact, a
                                      > 'harma' (or, rather 'aha', but of course it's the same tengwa!), not
                                      > 'hyarmen'.

                                      "No. 11 was called _harma_ when it represented the spirant _ch_ in all
                                      positions, but when this sound became breath _h_ initially (though
                                      remaining medially) the name _aha_ was devised."

                                      So:
                                      1) <harma> first represented [x] in all positions. The letter was
                                      pronunced [xarma].
                                      2) [x] became [h] initially. From this follows that the pronounciation
                                      became [harma].
                                      3) <harma> was renamed <aha>, pronounced [axa]. The name change was
                                      obviously made to retain the pronounciation [x] of the letter.


                                      > Thúle: For 'th'? In Quenya? Mature Quenya did not possess the 'th'
                                      > phoneme.

                                      "TH ... had become _s_ in spoken Quenya, though still written with a
                                      different letter". QED.


                                      > Noldo: Professor Tolkien himself tells us that 'ñoldo' can occur
                                      > medially.

                                      As far as I know, all he says is that the letter combination NG occurs
                                      medially, and that the sound of _sing_ "also occurred initally in
                                      Quenya, but has been transcribed _n_ (as in _Noldo_), according to the
                                      pronounciation of the Third Age."


                                      > A tilde over a tengwa: I was under the impression that the nasal sign
                                      > was originally used in Sindarin because all 'nasal + consonant'
                                      > combinations possible in Quenya were written with single tengwar. Does
                                      > anyone know of a Quenya word that would use a nasal sign?

                                      No, all nasals are covered in the conventional Quenya mode.


                                      > There is one final vagary: 'anna'. We know that 'anna' must be
                                      > accompanied by two under-imposed dots to represent the sound 'y' ( or
                                      > IPA [j]), and that 'anna' alone must have a rôle of a carrier of
                                      > sorts. Måns uses 'anna' + accent tehta as the first letter of the word
                                      > 'ëar' in his calligraphy rendition of the Markirya Boat Poem (btw, a
                                      > beautifully rendered manuscript, Måns!), but is this attested, or
                                      > simply used to avoid writing two short carriers together? Do we have any
                                      > information about the use of 'anna' without the dots? Apparently the
                                      > word 'anna' begins with the tengwa of that name.

                                      In the short text "Noldorin words for Language" (Vinyar Tengwar #39) p.
                                      17, we learn that <anna> originally represented [3], i.e. a spirant _g_
                                      -- a sound that had, in fact, vanished from the language in Feanor's
                                      time. Although this is entirely unattested, one could therefore
                                      theoretically use <anna> in positions where this sound occurred earlier.
                                      That is the way I use it in my _Markirya_ rendition: _ear_ derives from
                                      earlier *_gayar_ (Tolkien changed his mind several times about the
                                      etymology of this word, but see The Peoples of Middle-earth, "The
                                      Shibboleth of Fëanor" note 45). Having said this, it *is* nice to be
                                      able to avoid consecutive vowel-carriers! :-)


                                      Yours,
                                      Måns

                                      --
                                      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                                      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                                      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                                      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
                                    • Lisa Star
                                      ... ... **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien s explanation made sense. For one thing, when a
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 16 3:06 PM
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                                        >From: "Jeremie Knusel" <elendur@...>

                                        <snip long, reasonably clear explanation>

                                        >So hyarmen was used to replace harma. Why would it have been necessary to
                                        >add a new function to hyarmen (e.g. breath-h), if harma was still used for
                                        >every 'h' it was used for before? (mmm I feel it's not perfect English,
                                        >sorry)
                                        >
                                        >I hope this text is not too confused...

                                        **I think you are right, and I have never felt that Tolkien's explanation
                                        made sense. For one thing, when a sound change occurs in a language, the
                                        spelling usually remains the same for a long time. Ex., the Latin word
                                        circus was originally pronounced with both the c's as k's. Over time, there
                                        was a sound change that caused c to be pronounced as s before a front vowel,
                                        but we still spell it with two c's, even though it is ridiculous and
                                        confusing. Some languages are normally spelled accurately, and the elves
                                        were presumably more linguistically aware than most people, but writing is
                                        never as accurate as native speakers think it is, except right after a major
                                        spelling reform.

                                        **I thought the explanation of the switch of harma to aha was so strange
                                        that I invented a new explanation for it. I decided that the elves altered
                                        the name of the letter from a word meaning 'treasure' to a word meaning
                                        'rage' in acknowledgement of the devastation caused by Feanor's attempts to
                                        regain the Silmarils--i.e., the Wars of the Jewels. This is a fantasy of
                                        course, but it makes better sense then Tolkien's explantion. I wonder what
                                        his real reason was? Often when he gives some very strange convoluted
                                        reason for something, it's because he (seems to) want to avoid a simpler
                                        explanation that everyone would recognize the source for. I don't know what
                                        that would be here, though.

                                        ** Lisa Star
                                        ** LisaStar@...

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