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Re: [elfscript] Re: Finnish with Beleriandic luuvar meanings?

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  • John Cowan
    ... In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o which are
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
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      Harri Per?l? scripsit:

      > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
      > Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
      > they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
      > some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
      > in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
      > by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

      In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the
      voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o
      which are normally pronounced like i and u respectively. Nonetheless,
      literate Quechua-speakers strongly resist writing p t k i u for b d g e o,
      on the grounds that it "looks wrong", meaning of course that it looks
      wrong in Spanish, the prestige language.

      > So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
      > phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
      > graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
      > think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
      > Finnish tengwar modes.

      Finnish /d/ is historically /D/, or eth, and it might be cool to write it
      in tengwar using a voiced fricative.

      --
      John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
      To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
      are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
      that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
      --_The Hobbit_
    • xeeniseit
      Harri Perälä teithant: a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writerI wrote:
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
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        Harri Perälä teithant:
        > > > a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create
        an image of an uneducated, rustic writer

        I wrote:
        > > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed for, th=
        en I
        don't understand these harsh judgments.

        Harri Perälä wrote:
        > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the =
        Latin
        alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
        often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in some sense
        perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k in writing
        creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get by writing
        "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

        In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write th=
        e
        (short) t/p/k-sounds. So people are _not aware_ that in foreign words or
        names, they're saying t/p/k instead of d/b/g (of course, native speakers of=

        these foreign languages note that replacement). I was even told that people=

        (who speak my language) had perceived t/p/k-sounds spoken by Finns as if it=

        were d/b/g-sounds. This again shows that the sounds we think of as being d/=

        b/g-sounds (because we always write them as such) are in fact t/p/k-sounds.=


        So in that psychological respect, my language seems to be more suited for
        the use of these 'Beleriandic luuvar meanings' than Finnish (or Quechua).

        suilaid
        xeeniseit
      • John Cowan
        ... What language is that? Sounds like Chinese. -- With techies, I ve generally found John Cowan If your arguments lose the first round
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
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          xeeniseit scripsit:

          > In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write the
          > (short) t/p/k-sounds.

          What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

          --
          With techies, I've generally found John Cowan
          If your arguments lose the first round http://www.reutershealth.com
          Make it rhyme, make it scan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
          Then you generally can jcowan@...
          Make the same stupid point seem profound! --Jonathan Robie
        • xeeniseit
          ... d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds. ... It s a southern German dialect. I didn t know that our orthography is sharing some features with
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
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            I wrote:
            > > In my language it's different, because we use the
            d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds.

            John Cowan wrote:
            > What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

            It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
            is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

            suilaid
            xeeniseit
          • John Cowan
            ... Absolutely. The b in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced sound; p is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially an h . Some
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
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              xeeniseit scripsit:

              > It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
              > is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

              Absolutely. The "b" in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced
              sound; "p" is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially
              an "h". Some dialects of English are pronounced this way as well, notably
              Australian.

              --
              John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
              To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
              are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
              that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
              --_The Hobbit_
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