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Re: [elfscript] Re: Finnish with Beleriandic luuvar meanings?

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  • Harri Perälä
    ... Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
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      xeeniseit wrote:
      >
      > Harri Perälä teithant:
      > > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented
      > > would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer
      > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
      > for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments.

      Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
      Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
      they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
      some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
      in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
      by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

      So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
      phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
      graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
      think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
      Finnish tengwar modes.

      --
      Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
    • John Cowan
      ... In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o which are
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
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        Harri Per?l? scripsit:

        > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
        > Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
        > they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
        > some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
        > in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
        > by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

        In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the
        voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o
        which are normally pronounced like i and u respectively. Nonetheless,
        literate Quechua-speakers strongly resist writing p t k i u for b d g e o,
        on the grounds that it "looks wrong", meaning of course that it looks
        wrong in Spanish, the prestige language.

        > So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
        > phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
        > graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
        > think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
        > Finnish tengwar modes.

        Finnish /d/ is historically /D/, or eth, and it might be cool to write it
        in tengwar using a voiced fricative.

        --
        John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
        To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
        are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
        that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
        --_The Hobbit_
      • xeeniseit
        Harri Perälä teithant: a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writerI wrote:
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
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          Harri Perälä teithant:
          > > > a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create
          an image of an uneducated, rustic writer

          I wrote:
          > > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed for, th=
          en I
          don't understand these harsh judgments.

          Harri Perälä wrote:
          > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the =
          Latin
          alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
          often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in some sense
          perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k in writing
          creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get by writing
          "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

          In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write th=
          e
          (short) t/p/k-sounds. So people are _not aware_ that in foreign words or
          names, they're saying t/p/k instead of d/b/g (of course, native speakers of=

          these foreign languages note that replacement). I was even told that people=

          (who speak my language) had perceived t/p/k-sounds spoken by Finns as if it=

          were d/b/g-sounds. This again shows that the sounds we think of as being d/=

          b/g-sounds (because we always write them as such) are in fact t/p/k-sounds.=


          So in that psychological respect, my language seems to be more suited for
          the use of these 'Beleriandic luuvar meanings' than Finnish (or Quechua).

          suilaid
          xeeniseit
        • John Cowan
          ... What language is that? Sounds like Chinese. -- With techies, I ve generally found John Cowan If your arguments lose the first round
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
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            xeeniseit scripsit:

            > In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write the
            > (short) t/p/k-sounds.

            What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

            --
            With techies, I've generally found John Cowan
            If your arguments lose the first round http://www.reutershealth.com
            Make it rhyme, make it scan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
            Then you generally can jcowan@...
            Make the same stupid point seem profound! --Jonathan Robie
          • xeeniseit
            ... d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds. ... It s a southern German dialect. I didn t know that our orthography is sharing some features with
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
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              I wrote:
              > > In my language it's different, because we use the
              d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds.

              John Cowan wrote:
              > What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

              It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
              is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

              suilaid
              xeeniseit
            • John Cowan
              ... Absolutely. The b in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced sound; p is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially an h . Some
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
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                xeeniseit scripsit:

                > It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                > is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                Absolutely. The "b" in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced
                sound; "p" is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially
                an "h". Some dialects of English are pronounced this way as well, notably
                Australian.

                --
                John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
                are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
                that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
                --_The Hobbit_
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