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Re: Finnish with Beleriandic luuvar meanings?

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  • xeeniseit
    ... luuvar? I m ... work. ... usually do ... My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use uure to represent the latter (which is
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 4 5:05 AM
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      Harri Perälä teithant:
      > xeeniseit wrote:
      >
      > > thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the
      luuvar? I'm
      > > not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
      > > about that language. Would it work?
      >
      > I haven't thought about this before, but I think it would mostly
      work.
      > However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects
      usually do
      > not. It is also common to distinguish /f/ from /v/.

      My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use
      uure to represent the latter (which is etymologically correct), in
      order to have the main tengwar representing f and ff, s and ss,
      kh and khkh. But it's not a very good solution, because now
      there's a new problem: How to represent the original sound of
      uure, the /w/? I use alda, but that works only in my language
      where that's etymologically correct in most cases. But anyway, if
      you wish to distinguish between d-t-tt, then such a mode doesn't
      work.

      > The system feels pretty natural to me, and
      > letters with doubled bows visualise the idea of doubling nicely.
      On the
      > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be
      represented would
      > create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer - it wouldn't
      have much
      > chance of becoming a standard spelling!

      Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
      for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments. An English
      speaker could also say that an orthography where the th-sounds
      can't be represented (e.g. French, cf. 'le thème') is uneducated
      and rustic.

      > I recall that Melroch's Finnish mode at
      > http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html also uses a tyelle for
      doubled
      > stops, but I can't access the page right now.

      Yes, he uses the tyelle with stems extended on both sides for
      long stops, and the same with doubled luuvar for prenasalised
      long stops, parallel to the use of the ando-tyelle (with doubled
      luuvar) for prenasalised short stops. But the other tyeller follow
      more or less the Westron mode, which makes the mode quite
      inconsistent. In that respect, also the Beleriand mode is
      inconsistent, but that's different because it still can't be
      discussed. (It's also for consistency that I prefer Per Lindberg's
      suggestion ö-tehta from yours, Harri.)

      suilaid
      xeeniseit
    • Harri Perälä
      ... Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 5 3:15 AM
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        xeeniseit wrote:
        >
        > Harri Perälä teithant:
        > > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented
        > > would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer
        > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
        > for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments.

        Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
        Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
        they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
        some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
        in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
        by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

        So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
        phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
        graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
        think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
        Finnish tengwar modes.

        --
        Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
      • John Cowan
        ... In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o which are
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 5 7:56 AM
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          Harri Per?l? scripsit:

          > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
          > Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
          > they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
          > some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
          > in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
          > by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

          In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the
          voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o
          which are normally pronounced like i and u respectively. Nonetheless,
          literate Quechua-speakers strongly resist writing p t k i u for b d g e o,
          on the grounds that it "looks wrong", meaning of course that it looks
          wrong in Spanish, the prestige language.

          > So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
          > phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
          > graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
          > think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
          > Finnish tengwar modes.

          Finnish /d/ is historically /D/, or eth, and it might be cool to write it
          in tengwar using a voiced fricative.

          --
          John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
          To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
          are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
          that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
          --_The Hobbit_
        • xeeniseit
          Harri Perälä teithant: a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writerI wrote:
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 6 1:37 PM
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            Harri Perälä teithant:
            > > > a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create
            an image of an uneducated, rustic writer

            I wrote:
            > > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed for, th=
            en I
            don't understand these harsh judgments.

            Harri Perälä wrote:
            > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the =
            Latin
            alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
            often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in some sense
            perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k in writing
            creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get by writing
            "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

            In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write th=
            e
            (short) t/p/k-sounds. So people are _not aware_ that in foreign words or
            names, they're saying t/p/k instead of d/b/g (of course, native speakers of=

            these foreign languages note that replacement). I was even told that people=

            (who speak my language) had perceived t/p/k-sounds spoken by Finns as if it=

            were d/b/g-sounds. This again shows that the sounds we think of as being d/=

            b/g-sounds (because we always write them as such) are in fact t/p/k-sounds.=


            So in that psychological respect, my language seems to be more suited for
            the use of these 'Beleriandic luuvar meanings' than Finnish (or Quechua).

            suilaid
            xeeniseit
          • John Cowan
            ... What language is that? Sounds like Chinese. -- With techies, I ve generally found John Cowan If your arguments lose the first round
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 6 2:17 PM
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              xeeniseit scripsit:

              > In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write the
              > (short) t/p/k-sounds.

              What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

              --
              With techies, I've generally found John Cowan
              If your arguments lose the first round http://www.reutershealth.com
              Make it rhyme, make it scan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
              Then you generally can jcowan@...
              Make the same stupid point seem profound! --Jonathan Robie
            • xeeniseit
              ... d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds. ... It s a southern German dialect. I didn t know that our orthography is sharing some features with
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 7 4:30 AM
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                I wrote:
                > > In my language it's different, because we use the
                d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds.

                John Cowan wrote:
                > What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

                It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                suilaid
                xeeniseit
              • John Cowan
                ... Absolutely. The b in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced sound; p is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially an h . Some
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 7 4:42 AM
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                  xeeniseit scripsit:

                  > It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                  > is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                  Absolutely. The "b" in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced
                  sound; "p" is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially
                  an "h". Some dialects of English are pronounced this way as well, notably
                  Australian.

                  --
                  John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                  To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
                  are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
                  that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
                  --_The Hobbit_
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