Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [elfscript] Finnish with Beleriandic luuvar meanings?

Expand Messages
  • Harri Perälä
    ... I haven t thought about this before, but I think it would mostly work. However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects usually do not. It is
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      xeeniseit wrote:

      > thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the luuvar? I'm
      > not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
      > about that language. Would it work?

      I haven't thought about this before, but I think it would mostly work.
      However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects usually do
      not. It is also common to distinguish /f/ from /v/.

      Here is a newspaper headline written in a simple Finnish mode that uses
      "Beleriandic lúvar":

      http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/images/tengwar_muukonsuoralla.gif

      I wrote _ä_ and _a_ with the same tehta just to get this typed faster.
      Alda is used for _ll_. The system feels pretty natural to me, and
      letters with doubled bows visualise the idea of doubling nicely. On the
      other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would
      create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer - it wouldn't have much
      chance of becoming a standard spelling!

      I recall that Melroch's Finnish mode at
      http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html also uses a tyelle for doubled
      stops, but I can't access the page right now.

      --
      Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
    • xeeniseit
      ... luuvar? I m ... work. ... usually do ... My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use uure to represent the latter (which is
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Harri Perälä teithant:
        > xeeniseit wrote:
        >
        > > thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the
        luuvar? I'm
        > > not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
        > > about that language. Would it work?
        >
        > I haven't thought about this before, but I think it would mostly
        work.
        > However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects
        usually do
        > not. It is also common to distinguish /f/ from /v/.

        My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use
        uure to represent the latter (which is etymologically correct), in
        order to have the main tengwar representing f and ff, s and ss,
        kh and khkh. But it's not a very good solution, because now
        there's a new problem: How to represent the original sound of
        uure, the /w/? I use alda, but that works only in my language
        where that's etymologically correct in most cases. But anyway, if
        you wish to distinguish between d-t-tt, then such a mode doesn't
        work.

        > The system feels pretty natural to me, and
        > letters with doubled bows visualise the idea of doubling nicely.
        On the
        > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be
        represented would
        > create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer - it wouldn't
        have much
        > chance of becoming a standard spelling!

        Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
        for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments. An English
        speaker could also say that an orthography where the th-sounds
        can't be represented (e.g. French, cf. 'le thème') is uneducated
        and rustic.

        > I recall that Melroch's Finnish mode at
        > http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html also uses a tyelle for
        doubled
        > stops, but I can't access the page right now.

        Yes, he uses the tyelle with stems extended on both sides for
        long stops, and the same with doubled luuvar for prenasalised
        long stops, parallel to the use of the ando-tyelle (with doubled
        luuvar) for prenasalised short stops. But the other tyeller follow
        more or less the Westron mode, which makes the mode quite
        inconsistent. In that respect, also the Beleriand mode is
        inconsistent, but that's different because it still can't be
        discussed. (It's also for consistency that I prefer Per Lindberg's
        suggestion ö-tehta from yours, Harri.)

        suilaid
        xeeniseit
      • Harri Perälä
        ... Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          xeeniseit wrote:
          >
          > Harri Perälä teithant:
          > > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented
          > > would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer
          > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
          > for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments.

          Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
          Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
          they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
          some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
          in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
          by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

          So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
          phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
          graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
          think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
          Finnish tengwar modes.

          --
          Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
        • John Cowan
          ... In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o which are
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Harri Per?l? scripsit:

            > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
            > Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
            > they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
            > some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
            > in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
            > by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

            In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the
            voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o
            which are normally pronounced like i and u respectively. Nonetheless,
            literate Quechua-speakers strongly resist writing p t k i u for b d g e o,
            on the grounds that it "looks wrong", meaning of course that it looks
            wrong in Spanish, the prestige language.

            > So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
            > phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
            > graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
            > think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
            > Finnish tengwar modes.

            Finnish /d/ is historically /D/, or eth, and it might be cool to write it
            in tengwar using a voiced fricative.

            --
            John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
            To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
            are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
            that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
            --_The Hobbit_
          • xeeniseit
            Harri Perälä teithant: a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writerI wrote:
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Harri Perälä teithant:
              > > > a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create
              an image of an uneducated, rustic writer

              I wrote:
              > > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed for, th=
              en I
              don't understand these harsh judgments.

              Harri Perälä wrote:
              > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the =
              Latin
              alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
              often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in some sense
              perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k in writing
              creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get by writing
              "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

              In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write th=
              e
              (short) t/p/k-sounds. So people are _not aware_ that in foreign words or
              names, they're saying t/p/k instead of d/b/g (of course, native speakers of=

              these foreign languages note that replacement). I was even told that people=

              (who speak my language) had perceived t/p/k-sounds spoken by Finns as if it=

              were d/b/g-sounds. This again shows that the sounds we think of as being d/=

              b/g-sounds (because we always write them as such) are in fact t/p/k-sounds.=


              So in that psychological respect, my language seems to be more suited for
              the use of these 'Beleriandic luuvar meanings' than Finnish (or Quechua).

              suilaid
              xeeniseit
            • John Cowan
              ... What language is that? Sounds like Chinese. -- With techies, I ve generally found John Cowan If your arguments lose the first round
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                xeeniseit scripsit:

                > In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write the
                > (short) t/p/k-sounds.

                What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

                --
                With techies, I've generally found John Cowan
                If your arguments lose the first round http://www.reutershealth.com
                Make it rhyme, make it scan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                Then you generally can jcowan@...
                Make the same stupid point seem profound! --Jonathan Robie
              • xeeniseit
                ... d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds. ... It s a southern German dialect. I didn t know that our orthography is sharing some features with
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  I wrote:
                  > > In my language it's different, because we use the
                  d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds.

                  John Cowan wrote:
                  > What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

                  It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                  is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                  suilaid
                  xeeniseit
                • John Cowan
                  ... Absolutely. The b in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced sound; p is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially an h . Some
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    xeeniseit scripsit:

                    > It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                    > is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                    Absolutely. The "b" in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced
                    sound; "p" is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially
                    an "h". Some dialects of English are pronounced this way as well, notably
                    Australian.

                    --
                    John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                    To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
                    are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
                    that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
                    --_The Hobbit_
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.