Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Finnish with Beleriandic luuvar meanings?

Expand Messages
  • xeeniseit
    The Sindarin mode of Beleriand has a unique feature: The use of the oore tyelle (single luuva) for short nasal consonants and of the nuumen tyelle (doubled
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 2, 2003
      The Sindarin mode of Beleriand has a unique feature: The use of the
      oore tyelle (single luuva) for short nasal consonants and of the
      nuumen tyelle (doubled luuva) for long nasal consonants. This means,
      it gives the luuvar another meaning: one luuva means short, two luuvar
      means long; instead of their "standard" meaning: one luuva means
      voiceless, two luuvar means voiced.

      There are languages which would allow to generalize this "Beleriandic
      luuva meaning", applying it to all tyeller (tinco would represent t,
      ando tt, parma p, umbar pp, etc.). Such a language mustn't have a
      distinction between voiced and voiceless consonants, but it must have
      one between short and long consonants. Such a language is e.g. the one
      I speak, a dialect of German. As far as I know, Finnish is also such a
      language. Has anybody who knows Finnish (or a similar language) ever
      thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the luuvar? I'm
      not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
      about that language. Would it work?

      suilaid
      xeeniseit
    • Harri Perälä
      ... I haven t thought about this before, but I think it would mostly work. However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects usually do not. It is
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 3, 2003
        xeeniseit wrote:

        > thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the luuvar? I'm
        > not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
        > about that language. Would it work?

        I haven't thought about this before, but I think it would mostly work.
        However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects usually do
        not. It is also common to distinguish /f/ from /v/.

        Here is a newspaper headline written in a simple Finnish mode that uses
        "Beleriandic lúvar":

        http://www.sci.fi/~alboin/images/tengwar_muukonsuoralla.gif

        I wrote _ä_ and _a_ with the same tehta just to get this typed faster.
        Alda is used for _ll_. The system feels pretty natural to me, and
        letters with doubled bows visualise the idea of doubling nicely. On the
        other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would
        create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer - it wouldn't have much
        chance of becoming a standard spelling!

        I recall that Melroch's Finnish mode at
        http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html also uses a tyelle for doubled
        stops, but I can't access the page right now.

        --
        Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
      • xeeniseit
        ... luuvar? I m ... work. ... usually do ... My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use uure to represent the latter (which is
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 4, 2003
          Harri Perälä teithant:
          > xeeniseit wrote:
          >
          > > thought about generalizing that Beleriandic meaning of the
          luuvar? I'm
          > > not even sure if it'd really work in Finnish, as I know very little
          > > about that language. Would it work?
          >
          > I haven't thought about this before, but I think it would mostly
          work.
          > However, standard Finnish does have a /d/, although dialects
          usually do
          > not. It is also common to distinguish /f/ from /v/.

          My language also distinguishes between /f/ and /v/, but I use
          uure to represent the latter (which is etymologically correct), in
          order to have the main tengwar representing f and ff, s and ss,
          kh and khkh. But it's not a very good solution, because now
          there's a new problem: How to represent the original sound of
          uure, the /w/? I use alda, but that works only in my language
          where that's etymologically correct in most cases. But anyway, if
          you wish to distinguish between d-t-tt, then such a mode doesn't
          work.

          > The system feels pretty natural to me, and
          > letters with doubled bows visualise the idea of doubling nicely.
          On the
          > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be
          represented would
          > create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer - it wouldn't
          have much
          > chance of becoming a standard spelling!

          Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
          for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments. An English
          speaker could also say that an orthography where the th-sounds
          can't be represented (e.g. French, cf. 'le thème') is uneducated
          and rustic.

          > I recall that Melroch's Finnish mode at
          > http://www.melroch.net/tengwar.html also uses a tyelle for
          doubled
          > stops, but I can't access the page right now.

          Yes, he uses the tyelle with stems extended on both sides for
          long stops, and the same with doubled luuvar for prenasalised
          long stops, parallel to the use of the ando-tyelle (with doubled
          luuvar) for prenasalised short stops. But the other tyeller follow
          more or less the Westron mode, which makes the mode quite
          inconsistent. In that respect, also the Beleriand mode is
          inconsistent, but that's different because it still can't be
          discussed. (It's also for consistency that I prefer Per Lindberg's
          suggestion ö-tehta from yours, Harri.)

          suilaid
          xeeniseit
        • Harri Perälä
          ... Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
            xeeniseit wrote:
            >
            > Harri Perälä teithant:
            > > other hand, a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented
            > > would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writer
            > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed
            > for, then I don't understand these harsh judgments.

            Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
            Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
            they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
            some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
            in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
            by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

            So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
            phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
            graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
            think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
            Finnish tengwar modes.

            --
            Harri Perälä perala@... http://www.sci.fi/%7ealboin/
          • John Cowan
            ... In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o which are
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 5, 2003
              Harri Per?l? scripsit:

              > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the
              > Latin alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although
              > they are often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in
              > some sense perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k
              > in writing creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get
              > by writing "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

              In Quechua, the same situation exists, but even worse; not only do the
              voiced stops appear only in borrowed words, but also the vowels e and o
              which are normally pronounced like i and u respectively. Nonetheless,
              literate Quechua-speakers strongly resist writing p t k i u for b d g e o,
              on the grounds that it "looks wrong", meaning of course that it looks
              wrong in Spanish, the prestige language.

              > So, while it might be linguistically justified to say that there are no
              > phonemes /b g/ in Finnish, and that they do not require their own
              > graphemes, there seems to be at least a psychological need for them. I
              > think at least some of these old associations are also carried over to
              > Finnish tengwar modes.

              Finnish /d/ is historically /D/, or eth, and it might be cool to write it
              in tengwar using a voiced fricative.

              --
              John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
              To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
              are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
              that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
              --_The Hobbit_
            • xeeniseit
              Harri Perälä teithant: a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create an image of an uneducated, rustic writerI wrote:
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
                Harri Perälä teithant:
                > > > a mode where voiced consonants cannot be represented would create
                an image of an uneducated, rustic writer

                I wrote:
                > > Uneducated? Rustic? If the mode fits the language it's designed for, th=
                en I
                don't understand these harsh judgments.

                Harri Perälä wrote:
                > Oh, I was just thinking about the current situation with Finnish and the =
                Latin
                alphabet. The letters b and g appear in loan words, and although they are
                often pronounced exactly like p and k, the written form is in some sense
                perceived as the correct one. Replacing b with p and g with k in writing
                creates a comical effect, perhaps something like what you get by writing
                "jools" instead of "jewels" in English.

                In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write th=
                e
                (short) t/p/k-sounds. So people are _not aware_ that in foreign words or
                names, they're saying t/p/k instead of d/b/g (of course, native speakers of=

                these foreign languages note that replacement). I was even told that people=

                (who speak my language) had perceived t/p/k-sounds spoken by Finns as if it=

                were d/b/g-sounds. This again shows that the sounds we think of as being d/=

                b/g-sounds (because we always write them as such) are in fact t/p/k-sounds.=


                So in that psychological respect, my language seems to be more suited for
                the use of these 'Beleriandic luuvar meanings' than Finnish (or Quechua).

                suilaid
                xeeniseit
              • John Cowan
                ... What language is that? Sounds like Chinese. -- With techies, I ve generally found John Cowan If your arguments lose the first round
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 6, 2003
                  xeeniseit scripsit:

                  > In my language it's different, because we use the d/b/g-letters to write the
                  > (short) t/p/k-sounds.

                  What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

                  --
                  With techies, I've generally found John Cowan
                  If your arguments lose the first round http://www.reutershealth.com
                  Make it rhyme, make it scan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                  Then you generally can jcowan@...
                  Make the same stupid point seem profound! --Jonathan Robie
                • xeeniseit
                  ... d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds. ... It s a southern German dialect. I didn t know that our orthography is sharing some features with
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
                    I wrote:
                    > > In my language it's different, because we use the
                    d/b/g-letters to write the (short) t/p/k-sounds.

                    John Cowan wrote:
                    > What language is that? Sounds like Chinese.

                    It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                    is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                    suilaid
                    xeeniseit
                  • John Cowan
                    ... Absolutely. The b in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced sound; p is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially an h . Some
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 7, 2003
                      xeeniseit scripsit:

                      > It's a southern German dialect. I didn't know that our orthography
                      > is sharing some features with Chinese transcription systems!

                      Absolutely. The "b" in Beijing, for instance, represents an unvoiced
                      sound; "p" is the same sound but with following aspiration, essentially
                      an "h". Some dialects of English are pronounced this way as well, notably
                      Australian.

                      --
                      John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
                      To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There
                      are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
                      that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
                      --_The Hobbit_
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.