Re: [elfling] Oore, Roomen and Halla
- "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
>Since Tolkien is careful to point out that Quenya "originally" possessed
> Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
> > [...] "Originally" there were two
> > pronounciations of R, one trilled an one untrilled. But since, in The
> > Lord of the Rings, "R represents a trilled r in all positions", the
> > untrilled pronounciation must have vanished, presumably by merging with
> > the trilled pronounciation.
> This, as I said, is _not_ my view anymore. I believe today that the passage
> you cite ("R represents a trilled r in all positions" in Appe E) _should not_ be
> narrowly applied to Quenya. It is a warning addressed to the English reader, who
> should not "drop" his R in the alien tongues of the "Lord of the Rings".
> The 2 Rs of Quenya (roomen & oore) co-existed at the same time and did not merged.
a weak _r_, I see no reason to disbelieve the statement that "R
represents a trilled r in all positions". I agree that the
pronounciation description in Appendix E is somewhat simplified, but I
have yet to see any evidence that it is erroneous.
> > > In Noldorin Modern Quenya z > untrilled r ; cf.I agree. So the two R-sounds probably merged some time after this but
> > > "z became
> > > merged with 21" not 25! The rhotacisme is a change that was initiated late, and
> > > could be used to mark the change of Middle Quenya > Modern Quenya.
> > Yes, /z/ merged with the untrilled R pronounciation. What are you
> > getting at?
> The rhotacisme was a late phenomena in the history of Amanian Quenya. Note
> that in Me Quenya _did_ not change (cf. Plotz Letter). The change exemplified
> in Appe E happened in Eldamar.
> It is stated in Appe E that in the z sound of Middle Quenya merged with the
> tengwa 21 not 25 (e.g. this change z > r happened _only_ in Noldorin Quenya).
> This means that the tegnwa 21, the "weak r", was at that late period of
> the history of Quenya (when Vanyarin and Noldorin finally became two distinct
> dialects, or _geolects_) a valid phoneme.
before the War of the Ring, more than six thousand years later.
> The 2 Rs were in complementary distribution most probably.Most probably.
> > > But anyhow /hr/ is just an "allophone" ofThis is not how I was taught to identify allophones. You might as well
> > > R in Quenya.
> > On what do you base that?
> On my own "brains". ;-)
> hr can only appear in one place in Q., at the begging of a word, that is
> enough to make the phoneme /hr/ an "allophone" of an arch-phoneme R in Quenya.
> But the distinction hr/r was "perceived" by the Elvish ear.
call the breath _h_ an allophone of /r/ on the same grounds. The fact
that the Elves perceived the difference between _hr_ and _r_ should
rather indicate that they *were* different phonemes. There doesn't seem
to exist any attested _hr_/_r_ minimal pairs, but it should be beyond
doubt that the two sounds could occur in identical phonological contexts
in quenya, e.g. _hríve_/_ríma_.
Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."