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Re: [elfling] Oore, Roomen and Halla

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    ... Since Tolkien is careful to point out that Quenya originally possessed a weak _r_, I see no reason to disbelieve the statement that R represents a
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 24 7:22 AM
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      "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
      >
      > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
      > >
      > > [...] "Originally" there were two
      > > pronounciations of R, one trilled an one untrilled. But since, in The
      > > Lord of the Rings, "R represents a trilled r in all positions", the
      > > untrilled pronounciation must have vanished, presumably by merging with
      > > the trilled pronounciation.
      >
      > This, as I said, is _not_ my view anymore. I believe today that the passage
      > you cite ("R represents a trilled r in all positions" in Appe E) _should not_ be
      > narrowly applied to Quenya. It is a warning addressed to the English reader, who
      > should not "drop" his R in the alien tongues of the "Lord of the Rings".
      >
      > The 2 Rs of Quenya (roomen & oore) co-existed at the same time and did not merged.

      Since Tolkien is careful to point out that Quenya "originally" possessed
      a weak _r_, I see no reason to disbelieve the statement that "R
      represents a trilled r in all positions". I agree that the
      pronounciation description in Appendix E is somewhat simplified, but I
      have yet to see any evidence that it is erroneous.


      > > > In Noldorin Modern Quenya z > untrilled r ; cf.
      > > > "z became
      > > > merged with 21" not 25! The rhotacisme is a change that was initiated late, and
      > > > could be used to mark the change of Middle Quenya > Modern Quenya.
      > >
      > > Yes, /z/ merged with the untrilled R pronounciation. What are you
      > > getting at?
      >
      > The rhotacisme was a late phenomena in the history of Amanian Quenya. Note
      > that in Me Quenya _did_ not change (cf. Plotz Letter). The change exemplified
      > in Appe E happened in Eldamar.
      > It is stated in Appe E that in the z sound of Middle Quenya merged with the
      > tengwa 21 not 25 (e.g. this change z > r happened _only_ in Noldorin Quenya).
      >
      > This means that the tegnwa 21, the "weak r", was at that late period of
      > the history of Quenya (when Vanyarin and Noldorin finally became two distinct
      > dialects, or _geolects_) a valid phoneme.

      I agree. So the two R-sounds probably merged some time after this but
      before the War of the Ring, more than six thousand years later.


      > The 2 Rs were in complementary distribution most probably.

      Most probably.


      > > > But anyhow /hr/ is just an "allophone" of
      > > > R in Quenya.
      > >
      > > On what do you base that?
      >
      > On my own "brains". ;-)
      >
      > hr can only appear in one place in Q., at the begging of a word, that is
      > enough to make the phoneme /hr/ an "allophone" of an arch-phoneme R in Quenya.
      > But the distinction hr/r was "perceived" by the Elvish ear.

      This is not how I was taught to identify allophones. You might as well
      call the breath _h_ an allophone of /r/ on the same grounds. The fact
      that the Elves perceived the difference between _hr_ and _r_ should
      rather indicate that they *were* different phonemes. There doesn't seem
      to exist any attested _hr_/_r_ minimal pairs, but it should be beyond
      doubt that the two sounds could occur in identical phonological contexts
      in quenya, e.g. _hríve_/_ríma_.


      Yours,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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