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[elfscript] Re: Unicode and Elfscripts

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    Greetings Michael and all! ... Actually, the competing proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T. Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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      Greetings Michael and all!


      > Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:
      >
      > 1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
      > member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
      > many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
      > proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
      > and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
      > was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
      > figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
      > and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

      Actually, the "competing" proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T.
      Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of input. As I have
      not studied the principles of Unicode in great detail, I don't feel
      qualified to come up with a proposal of my own, and I shall be more than
      happy to lend my aid to that of Mr. Everson.


      > Personally, although I know that Tengwar is everyone's favourite, I would
      > like to hold off on it for a little while (I am preparing a big new summary
      > paper on it) and instead begin by looking at what I think is in fact a more
      > complete proposal, namely, that for the Cirth. See the Cirth proposal at
      > http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm

      I agree the Cirth proposal seems more complete, and since I doubt I can
      contribute much to it, I will let this matter rest until Michael feels
      the time is ripe for criticism of the Tengwar proposal.


      Yours,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
      Törnby Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
      SE-179 75 Skå All mimsy were the borogoves,
      Sweden And the mome raths outgrabe."
    • John Cowan
      I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7 in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively. The Unicode Standard says
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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        I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7
        in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively.

        The Unicode Standard says (version 3.0, p. 179):

        # The combining diacritical marks in this block [viz. U+0300 to U+036F]
        # are intended for general use with any script. [...] [T]he characters
        # in this block may have multiple semantic values.

        The choice between U+0331 and U+0332 depends on whether length marks
        applying to consecutive runes are merged into a single long line
        or not. If so, U+0332 is appropriate; if not, or if the evidence is
        unclear, U+0331 is appropriate. What if anything is known about this?

        --

        Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
        Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
        Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
      • John Cowan
        Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan Schliesst euer Aug vor
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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          Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN.

          --

          Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
          Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
          Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
          Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
        • Michael Everson
          ... I knew that.... :-) Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2;
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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            Ar 13:47 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
            >Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN.

            I knew that.... :-)

            Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
            15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
            Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
            27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
          • Michael Everson
            ... http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don t you? Circumflex, underscore, and dot below? The circumflex mark
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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              Ar 13:44 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
              >I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7
              >in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively.

              http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

              Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

              Circumflex, underscore, and dot below?

              The circumflex mark is used in Cirth to indicate nasalization.
              The underscore/macron below is used in Cirth to indicate length.
              The dot below is used in Cirth to indicate numeric value of a rune.

              What about the punctuation? Ken Whistler will kill us if we add yet another
              MIDDLE DOT. Runic has a single and a multiple dot separator, but Cirth
              definitely has one, two, three, and four dots, and I don't really favour
              linking Runic and Cirth anyway.

              >The choice between U+0331 and U+0332 depends on whether length marks
              >applying to consecutive runes are merged into a single long line
              >or not. If so, U+0332 is appropriate; if not, or if the evidence is
              >unclear, U+0331 is appropriate. What if anything is known about this?

              I can't remember seeing examples of the length mark. Anyone?

              Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
              15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
              Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
              27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
            • Michael Everson
              Hei Måns, ... For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                Hei Måns,

                >Actually, the "competing" proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T.
                >Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of input. As I have
                >not studied the principles of Unicode in great detail, I don't feel
                >qualified to come up with a proposal of my own, and I shall be more than
                >happy to lend my aid to that of Mr. Everson.

                For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you
                think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you see my
                amazing contribution.

                Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
              • John Cowan
                ... Yes. I was looking at N1642 instead of your most recent version. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                  Michael Everson wrote:

                  > Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

                  Yes. I was looking at N1642 instead of your most recent version.

                  --

                  Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                  Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                  Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                  Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
                • Michael Everson
                  OK, folks, the draft is available at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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                    OK, folks, the draft is available at
                    http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf

                    It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

                    Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:

                    1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
                    member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
                    many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
                    proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
                    and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
                    was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
                    figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
                    and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

                    2. Do not worry about the order of the characters in the table right now.
                    Ordering is irrelevant to the UCS character set encoding, and we can settle
                    on the aesthetics of the table layout LATER.

                    3. Do not worry too much about the character names right now. We do need to
                    discuss them and settle on good ones, but they're less important than Rule
                    4.

                    4. We need to determine whether the character set is complete or not. Are
                    there characters missing? Are there characters which are duplicates of each
                    other and should be unified? Are there characters which are unified and
                    should be differentiated? Do we have citations for EACH character we encode?

                    Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                    15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                    Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                    27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                  • Robert Brady
                    ... I m not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that the underlying
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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                      On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

                      > OK, folks, the draft is available at
                      > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf
                      >
                      > It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

                      I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
                      font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
                      the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
                      to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
                      same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
                      words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

                      This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
                      represent different modes in plaintext.

                      apart from that...

                      xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :

                      "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
                      /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
                      was like an undotted i."


                      xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
                      Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.

                      I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

                      --
                      Robert
                      "Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other
                      nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on
                      indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998.
                    • Michael Everson
                      ... You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E nelde , N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I neltildi and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N SILMARILLION. But Sindarin would be
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                        Ar 20:01 +0100 2000-04-13, scríobh Robert Brady:

                        >I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
                        >font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
                        >the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
                        >to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
                        >same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
                        >words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

                        You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E 'nelde',
                        N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I 'neltildi' and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N 'SILMARILLION. But
                        Sindarin would be incorrectly represented: N-L-E-D-E 'neled', NLEThLI
                        'nelthil', and S-L-I-V-R-A-L~-I-X-I-R-O 'SILMARILLION'.

                        >This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
                        >represent different modes in plaintext.

                        Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
                        you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
                        get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:

                        Quenya N´LD´ 'nelde', N´LT·Ld· 'neltildi'
                        Sindarin N´L´D 'neled', N´LTh·L 'nelThil'

                        Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
                        to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

                        And the alternative would be expensive inputting software to meet Sindarin
                        or English expectations. This is what you'd have to do to meet the user's
                        "underlying spelling" expectations, which they probably want to use on
                        inputting because it is lots easier.

                        >apart from that...
                        >
                        > xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :
                        >
                        > "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
                        > /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
                        > was like an undotted i."

                        Oops, that's an error in the names list. xx2D isn't the short charrier, it
                        is halla. The short carrier is xx2E. So I don't have the attestation for
                        halla yet.

                        > xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
                        > Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.
                        >
                        >I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

                        Apparently it was Quettar 13 and 14, but I do not have these. (I need them.)

                        Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                        15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                        Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                        27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                      • Robert Brady
                        ... Ok. That convinces me. I m just concerned about the complexity, as it is not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so it
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                          On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

                          > Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
                          > you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
                          > get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:
                          >
                          > Quenya N�LD� 'nelde', N�LT�Ld� 'neltildi'
                          > Sindarin N�L�D 'neled', N�LTh�L 'nelThil'
                          >
                          > Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
                          > to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

                          Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
                          not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
                          it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
                          operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

                          Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                          approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                          --
                          Robert
                        • Michael Everson
                          ... It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won t really get encoded until we have in implementation font. I m concerned about whether I got the Old
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                            Ar 18:56 +0100 2000-04-14, scríobh Robert Brady:

                            >Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
                            >not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
                            >it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
                            >operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

                            It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won't really get encoded
                            until we have in implementation font. I'm concerned about whether I got the
                            Old English vowel encoding right.

                            >Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                            >approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                            While they hiss and spit at Klingon, the feeling does seem to be that
                            Tengwar and Cirth are legitimate scripts for encoding. (Not that this was a
                            reason I proposed Klingon along with Tengwar and Cirth, oh my no....)

                            Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                            15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                            Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                            27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                          • John Cowan
                            ... They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand. What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal. -- Schlingt dreifach
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                              Robert Brady wrote:

                              > Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                              > approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                              They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand.
                              What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal.

                              --

                              Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                              Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                              Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                              Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
                            • Abrigon
                              http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/ http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 15, 2001
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                                http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/

                                http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html

                                For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                                Tengwar..

                                I do know that many of the lingos of India, and SE and to a degree NE
                                of India are based on fully or partially on the script that Sanskrit
                                used.. Some are harder to tell the origin, especially by the time you
                                get to Java and their script is very curvy.

                                Mike
                              • Nicole Mate
                                Hi, I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 13, 2004
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                                  Hi,
                                  I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each transcribed into Tengwar (and actually, if anyone has time, could you check the translations I have - I am almost positive they're right, but you never know). I have tried in so many different places to transcribe these or download a font, but nothing I am doing seems to work. If any of you can help me, or tell me what I can do to do it myself, I would be incredibly grateful. Thanks! The phrase is �see my pain�, here are the translations I already have.
                                  Quenya - � cen� nwalmenya or c�n� naicenya
                                  Sindarian - ceno naeg n�n. or ceno i naeg n�n.

                                  Once again, Thank you!


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