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Translating Italian into Elfscript.

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  • jlhmarson <jlhmarson@hotmail.com>
    Hi Everyone, I m having a little trouble translating Italian names and words. The problem is the fact that you often get names with 2 or 3 vowels together and
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 3 11:51 AM
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      Hi Everyone, I'm having a little trouble translating Italian names
      and words. The problem is the fact that you often get names with 2
      or 3 vowels together and of course virtually all words finish in a
      vowel. Do I just use a carrier? even if it's 2 or 3 in a row? Any
      help would be appreciated. Thanks J
    • Brook Conner
      On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 02:51 PM, jlhmarson ... Any language uses tengwar in a way suited to the language. Typically, that is a manner that follows
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 3 8:07 PM
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        On Monday, February 3, 2003, at 02:51 PM, jlhmarson
        <jlhmarson@...> wrote:

        > Hi Everyone, I'm having a little trouble translating Italian names
        > and words.

        Any language uses tengwar in a way suited to the language. Typically,
        that is a manner that follows the phonology of the language. Sometimes,
        this is done in a manner that follows an existing orthographic
        convention for the language.

        The assignment of tengwar to letters or sounds is called a "mode." A
        mode will also include conventions on how to use tehtar (the vowel
        diacritical marks) and where tehtar get placed (e.g., above either the
        preceding or following consonantal tengwa). A mode will also specify
        conventions for other diacritical marks (like the underline for a
        double-length consonant) and sometimes punctuation, too.

        Quenya and Sindarin modes follow the phonology of Quenya and Sindarin
        respectively. Since Quenya tends to have a lot of words ending in
        vowels and very few beginning in vowels, tehtar are placed above the
        preceding consonant. Sindarin is the opposite - words tend to end in
        consonants, so a tehta is placed above the following tengwa.

        There are many different modes for English. Some follow an orthographic
        convention - the tengwar are assigned to letters of the English
        alphabet and then normal english spelling is used. Modes like this will
        often follow the Mode of Beleriand as an example and assign vowels to
        full tengwar, not to tehtar marks.

        > The problem is the fact that you often get names with 2
        > or 3 vowels together and of course virtually all words finish in a
        > vowel.

        Yes, suggesting you'd like to start with a Quenya-like mode.

        If you use the TengScribe windows application, there's a mode for
        Italian listed on this page:

        http://hem.passagen.se/mansb/at/tengscribe.htm

        Whether you like that mode or not depends on your personal taste.....

        > Do I just use a carrier? even if it's 2 or 3 in a row? Any
        > help would be appreciated. Thanks J

        If you follow the example of most modes and went with a Quenya-like
        mode as a basis, you'd put the first tehta over the preceding
        consonant, with subsequent tehta over one or two carriers.

        A somewhat less orthodox mode might allow tehtar to be drawn *below* a
        tengwa as well as above. If you do this, then a pair of vowels bracket
        one tengwa. A triplet of vowels might bracket the tengwa with the first
        two vowels while the third might be on a carrier or might be below the
        second vowel. Alternatively, at the end of the word you might allow the
        third tehta to be placed immediately after the tengwa. Arguably, this
        kind of approach is very "Italian" in that it recognizes the frequency
        of vowel clusters (ObDisclaimer - I don't speak Italian).

        I took this approach in an alternative to Eric Raymond's lojban mode
        that I had worked on a while ago. In lojban, words always start with a
        consonant and end in a vowel - hence a Quenya-like basis for the mode.
        There can be adjacent pairs of vowels, but never adjacent triples -
        thus above and below works quite neatly.


        Brook
        _____________
        In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet
        hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry,
        bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a
        hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.
      • xeeniseit <xeeniseit@yahoo.com.ar>
        ... That s attested in the Edwin Lodham s Manuscripts, DTS 50 and 51, and it s interesting that they don t show the same tengwar-tehtar order. DTS 50 has: 1st
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 4 2:46 AM
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          Brook Conner teithant:

          > A somewhat less orthodox mode might allow tehtar to be drawn
          > *below* a tengwa as well as above. If you do this, then a pair of
          > vowels bracket one tengwa.

          That's attested in the Edwin Lodham's Manuscripts, DTS 50 and 51, and
          it's interesting that they don't show the same tengwar-tehtar order.
          DTS 50 has: 1st tehta above, 2nd tengwa, 3rd tehta below; DTS 51 has:
          1st tengwa, 2nd tehta above, 3rd tehta below. You may call it "less
          orthodox", but only because that's a rather unusual mode, not because
          it were not attested.

          suilaid
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