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Re: [elfscript] Definite article Problem

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  • DDanielA@webtv.net
    ... Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who say they want
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 3, 2003
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      Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
      >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
      >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(

      Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
      has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who
      say they want to become fluent, but they are repeatedly told by others,
      including Gildor, that it's not possible. That's not what these lists
      are for. But they're also not for someone to bitch and moan about those
      of us Tolkien fans who want to use logical conclusions to reconstruct
      the gaps in our knowledge of the languages. We study the languages;
      assumptions are made.

      >ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar
      >of Sindarin but has Mr Helge's views of his *own*
      >Mature Sindarin. "Mature Sindarin" is not Tolkien's
      >Sindarin.

      Helge's theories about Sindarin are very much based on what clues we
      find in Tolkien's own works. He cites examples. Where no attested
      example exists, he makes no bones about the fact that his reconstruction
      is just theory. Helge is very straightforward about admitting that some
      of his and David Salo's reconstructions of the mutations may well be
      proved wrong in the light of Tolkien's writings yet to be published. And
      if they are wrong, Helge will the first to admit it. However, the
      original post that prompted Gildor's reply concerned the g>0 lenition.
      That, at least, is well attested in Tolkien's published works as, I'm
      sure, you're quite aware. Fluency in Sindarin is not required to point
      out a lenition that we have examples of.

      >We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so
      >far to be able to understand its mutation system.
      >Those you say the contaray are _lying_.

      Oh, we understand the system pretty well; we just don't know all the
      forms. And we disagree about the necessity for Helge's hypothetical
      'liquid mutation'. But we have some of Tolkien's own comments about some
      of the mutations in his 'Letters', and we can see the mutations at work
      in the available Sindarin corpus. Lenition (which follows the Welsh
      model pretty closely) and the nasal mutation are not much of a mystery,
      thanks to the examples we have. Using the clues provided by JRRT to find
      out what he *might* have intended is much like what he did with his
      languages: using the primitive Quendian roots to 'discover' the route
      that his languages took. I think if Tolkien were alive today, he would
      be impressed with the scholarship that has gone into the attempt to
      unravel the secrets of Eldarin. We have enough examples of the soft and
      nasal mutations to make some reasonable assumptions, and those who claim
      to the contrary are _lying_.

      Cuio mae, Danny.
    • laurifindil <ejk@free.fr>
      ... When Mr A ask How can I say z and Mr B writes : You can say it like that and that ... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent. I do not read
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 4, 2003
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        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
        > Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
        > >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
        > >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(
        >
        > Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
        > has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR.


        When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes : "You can say it like
        that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent.

        I do not read often (to say the least) things like "I do not know", or
        even a simple "maybe"...
      • Gildor Inglorion
        teithant laurifindil ... apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider it
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 4, 2003
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          teithant "laurifindil <ejk@...>"

          > When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes :
          > "You can say it like
          > that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is
          > pretty fluent.
          >
          > I do not read often (to say the least) things like
          > "I do not know", or
          > even a simple "maybe"...

          apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is
          to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider
          it possible of course), and not a full analysis of how
          and why i picked/made some words..

          i' m sure the newbie who asked this translation for a
          RPG game or a nickname, is not interested in this..
          he/she wants an answer, and it's ok with me and my
          conscience that i tried to make a sentence according
          to what i know about Elvish, and didn't 'fool' him/her
          with some alien words ('reflection' in sindarin? oh i
          have it right here, published in my secret personal
          dictionary, it's 'gwenniathreg')

          i have been numerous times proven wrong, and every
          time i give an answer, i also rely on the critical eye
          of the other elflingers who correct me

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