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Re: [elfscript] Definite article Problem

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  • Helge K. Fauskanger
    ... wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want to write the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 29, 2003
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      > As you have all probably noticed I am a newbie. I was
      wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather
      basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want to write
      "the world" in Sindarin, is "en gardh" correct or is it "i gardh" or am I
      completely wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,
      >

      This is off topic, but...

      _En_ is normally taken as the genitival article "of the". The normal
      (singular) article "the" is _i_. The normal translation of "world" is
      _amar_ (= Quenya _ambar_). This word also has the advantage that it begins
      in a vowel, and you don't have to consider any of the complex mutations
      initial consonants undergo in Sindarin (the articles do trigger such
      mutations). Not that _gardh_ is not a possible translation of "world".

      So "the world" = _i amar_. The very first words heard in Peter Jackson's
      _Fellowship_ movie, actually.

      - HKF
    • DDanielA@webtv.net
      ... Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who say they want
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 3 3:09 AM
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        Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
        >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
        >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(

        Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
        has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who
        say they want to become fluent, but they are repeatedly told by others,
        including Gildor, that it's not possible. That's not what these lists
        are for. But they're also not for someone to bitch and moan about those
        of us Tolkien fans who want to use logical conclusions to reconstruct
        the gaps in our knowledge of the languages. We study the languages;
        assumptions are made.

        >ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar
        >of Sindarin but has Mr Helge's views of his *own*
        >Mature Sindarin. "Mature Sindarin" is not Tolkien's
        >Sindarin.

        Helge's theories about Sindarin are very much based on what clues we
        find in Tolkien's own works. He cites examples. Where no attested
        example exists, he makes no bones about the fact that his reconstruction
        is just theory. Helge is very straightforward about admitting that some
        of his and David Salo's reconstructions of the mutations may well be
        proved wrong in the light of Tolkien's writings yet to be published. And
        if they are wrong, Helge will the first to admit it. However, the
        original post that prompted Gildor's reply concerned the g>0 lenition.
        That, at least, is well attested in Tolkien's published works as, I'm
        sure, you're quite aware. Fluency in Sindarin is not required to point
        out a lenition that we have examples of.

        >We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so
        >far to be able to understand its mutation system.
        >Those you say the contaray are _lying_.

        Oh, we understand the system pretty well; we just don't know all the
        forms. And we disagree about the necessity for Helge's hypothetical
        'liquid mutation'. But we have some of Tolkien's own comments about some
        of the mutations in his 'Letters', and we can see the mutations at work
        in the available Sindarin corpus. Lenition (which follows the Welsh
        model pretty closely) and the nasal mutation are not much of a mystery,
        thanks to the examples we have. Using the clues provided by JRRT to find
        out what he *might* have intended is much like what he did with his
        languages: using the primitive Quendian roots to 'discover' the route
        that his languages took. I think if Tolkien were alive today, he would
        be impressed with the scholarship that has gone into the attempt to
        unravel the secrets of Eldarin. We have enough examples of the soft and
        nasal mutations to make some reasonable assumptions, and those who claim
        to the contrary are _lying_.

        Cuio mae, Danny.
      • laurifindil <ejk@free.fr>
        ... When Mr A ask How can I say z and Mr B writes : You can say it like that and that ... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent. I do not read
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 4 1:14 AM
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          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
          > Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
          > >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
          > >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(
          >
          > Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
          > has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR.


          When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes : "You can say it like
          that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent.

          I do not read often (to say the least) things like "I do not know", or
          even a simple "maybe"...
        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant laurifindil ... apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider it
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 4 3:43 AM
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            teithant "laurifindil <ejk@...>"

            > When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes :
            > "You can say it like
            > that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is
            > pretty fluent.
            >
            > I do not read often (to say the least) things like
            > "I do not know", or
            > even a simple "maybe"...

            apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is
            to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider
            it possible of course), and not a full analysis of how
            and why i picked/made some words..

            i' m sure the newbie who asked this translation for a
            RPG game or a nickname, is not interested in this..
            he/she wants an answer, and it's ok with me and my
            conscience that i tried to make a sentence according
            to what i know about Elvish, and didn't 'fool' him/her
            with some alien words ('reflection' in sindarin? oh i
            have it right here, published in my secret personal
            dictionary, it's 'gwenniathreg')

            i have been numerous times proven wrong, and every
            time i give an answer, i also rely on the critical eye
            of the other elflingers who correct me

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