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Definite article Problem

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  • theunixkid2000 <TheUnixKid@aol.com>
    Greetings all, As you have all probably noticed I am a newbie. I was wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather basic Sindarin
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
      Greetings all,
      As you have all probably noticed I am a newbie. I was
      wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a
      rather basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want
      to write "the world" in Sindarin, is "en gardh" correct or is it "i
      gardh" or am I completely wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,

      Yours
      Bob
    • Gildor Inglorion
      teithant theunixkid2000 ... there are 3 articles attested: let s take for example the word _adab_ i adab the building , en adab of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
        teithant "theunixkid2000 <TheUnixKid@...>"

        > wondering if it would be possible for someone to
        > help me out with a
        > rather basic Sindarin definite article conjugation
        > problem. If I want
        > to write "the world" in Sindarin, is "en gardh"
        > correct or is it "i
        > gardh" or am I completely wrong? Any help would be
        > much appreciated,

        there are 3 articles attested: let's take for example
        the word _adab_

        i adab 'the building', en adab 'of the building', in
        edaib 'the buildings'

        if the noun begins with a consinant, mutations are
        caused: _parf_ 'book'

        i barf 'the book', en barf 'of the book', i phairf
        'the books'

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      • DDanielA@webtv.net
        ... problem. Um ... only verbs are conjugated! ... _i ardh_ = the World . _en_ is the genitive article. _en_ + _gardh_ _e-gardh_ = of the World . Cuio
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
          Teithant TheUnixKid:
          >help me out with a rather basic Sindarin definite >article conjugation
          problem.

          Um ... only verbs are conjugated!

          >If I want to write "the world" in Sindarin, is "en
          >gardh" correct or is it "i gardh" or am I completely
          >wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,

          _i 'ardh_ = 'the World'. _en_ is the genitive article. _en_ + _gardh_ >
          _e-gardh_ = 'of the World'.

          Cuio mae, Danny.
        • theunixkid2000 <TheUnixKid@aol.com>
          ... conjugation ... _gardh_ ... Thank you for your help. Could you please tell me why you omit the g in i ardh and also why en + gardh becomes e-gardh.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 29, 2003
            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
            > Teithant TheUnixKid:
            > >help me out with a rather basic Sindarin definite >article
            conjugation
            > problem.
            >
            > Um ... only verbs are conjugated!
            >
            > >If I want to write "the world" in Sindarin, is "en
            > >gardh" correct or is it "i gardh" or am I completely
            > >wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,
            >
            > _i 'ardh_ = 'the World'. _en_ is the genitive article. _en_ +
            _gardh_ >
            > _e-gardh_ = 'of the World'.
            >
            > Cuio mae, Danny.

            Thank you for your help. Could you please tell me why you omit the g
            in "i 'ardh" and also why en + gardh becomes e-gardh. Thanks
            Bob
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want to write the
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 29, 2003
              > As you have all probably noticed I am a newbie. I was
              wondering if it would be possible for someone to help me out with a rather
              basic Sindarin definite article conjugation problem. If I want to write
              "the world" in Sindarin, is "en gardh" correct or is it "i gardh" or am I
              completely wrong? Any help would be much appreciated,
              >

              This is off topic, but...

              _En_ is normally taken as the genitival article "of the". The normal
              (singular) article "the" is _i_. The normal translation of "world" is
              _amar_ (= Quenya _ambar_). This word also has the advantage that it begins
              in a vowel, and you don't have to consider any of the complex mutations
              initial consonants undergo in Sindarin (the articles do trigger such
              mutations). Not that _gardh_ is not a possible translation of "world".

              So "the world" = _i amar_. The very first words heard in Peter Jackson's
              _Fellowship_ movie, actually.

              - HKF
            • Gildor Inglorion
              teithant theunixkid2000 ... it s a peculiarity of Sindarin (and Welsh and other languages): the first conconants are mutated in certain
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 30, 2003
                teithant "theunixkid2000 <TheUnixKid@...>"

                > Thank you for your help. Could you please tell me
                > why you omit the g
                > in "i 'ardh" and also why en + gardh becomes
                > e-gardh. Thanks

                it's a peculiarity of Sindarin (and Welsh and other
                languages): the first conconants are mutated in
                certain positions, after articles etc

                look at the sindarin grammar of Ardalambion.com about mutations

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              • laurifindil <ejk@free.fr>
                ... Not, again?! :-( Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-( ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien s Grammar of
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 30, 2003
                  --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Gildor Inglorion <elfiness@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > teithant "theunixkid2000 <TheUnixKid@a...>"
                  >
                  > > Thank you for your help. Could you please tell me
                  > > why you omit the g
                  > > in "i 'ardh" and also why en + gardh becomes
                  > > e-gardh. Thanks
                  >
                  > it's a peculiarity of Sindarin (and Welsh and other
                  > languages): the first conconants are mutated in
                  > certain positions, after articles etc
                  >
                  > look at the sindarin grammar of Ardalambion.com about mutations

                  Not, again?! :-(

                  Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent in Quenya and
                  Sindarin, are you? :-(

                  ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar of Sindarin but has Mr
                  Helge's views of his *own* Mature Sindarin. "Mature Sindarin" is not
                  Tolkien's Sindarin.

                  We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so far to be able to
                  understand its mutation system. Those you say the contaray are
                  _lying_.
                • Gildor Inglorion
                  teithant laurifindil ... ah not again :)) ... i DON T pretend to be ... when Helge said that he understand fully Sindarin mutation system?
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 30, 2003
                    teithant "laurifindil <ejk@...>"

                    > Not, again?! :-(

                    ah not again :))

                    > Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
                    > in Quenya and
                    > Sindarin, are you? :-(

                    i DON'T pretend to be

                    > ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar of
                    > Sindarin but has Mr
                    > Helge's views of his *own* Mature Sindarin. "Mature
                    > Sindarin" is not
                    > Tolkien's Sindarin.
                    >
                    > We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so far to
                    > be able to
                    > understand its mutation system. Those you say the
                    > contaray are
                    > _lying_.

                    when Helge said that he understand fully Sindarin
                    mutation system? Ardalambion presents the actual
                    evidence and attempts to place it in a system (yes,
                    *attempts*)

                    in some cases you must start from a certain point
                    (even plasmatic) and proceed from there

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                  • DDanielA@webtv.net
                    ... Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who say they want
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 3, 2003
                      Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
                      >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
                      >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(

                      Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
                      has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR. There have been newbies who
                      say they want to become fluent, but they are repeatedly told by others,
                      including Gildor, that it's not possible. That's not what these lists
                      are for. But they're also not for someone to bitch and moan about those
                      of us Tolkien fans who want to use logical conclusions to reconstruct
                      the gaps in our knowledge of the languages. We study the languages;
                      assumptions are made.

                      >ARDALAMBION site has *not* Tolkien's Grammar
                      >of Sindarin but has Mr Helge's views of his *own*
                      >Mature Sindarin. "Mature Sindarin" is not Tolkien's
                      >Sindarin.

                      Helge's theories about Sindarin are very much based on what clues we
                      find in Tolkien's own works. He cites examples. Where no attested
                      example exists, he makes no bones about the fact that his reconstruction
                      is just theory. Helge is very straightforward about admitting that some
                      of his and David Salo's reconstructions of the mutations may well be
                      proved wrong in the light of Tolkien's writings yet to be published. And
                      if they are wrong, Helge will the first to admit it. However, the
                      original post that prompted Gildor's reply concerned the g>0 lenition.
                      That, at least, is well attested in Tolkien's published works as, I'm
                      sure, you're quite aware. Fluency in Sindarin is not required to point
                      out a lenition that we have examples of.

                      >We don't have enough Sindarin text publish so
                      >far to be able to understand its mutation system.
                      >Those you say the contaray are _lying_.

                      Oh, we understand the system pretty well; we just don't know all the
                      forms. And we disagree about the necessity for Helge's hypothetical
                      'liquid mutation'. But we have some of Tolkien's own comments about some
                      of the mutations in his 'Letters', and we can see the mutations at work
                      in the available Sindarin corpus. Lenition (which follows the Welsh
                      model pretty closely) and the nasal mutation are not much of a mystery,
                      thanks to the examples we have. Using the clues provided by JRRT to find
                      out what he *might* have intended is much like what he did with his
                      languages: using the primitive Quendian roots to 'discover' the route
                      that his languages took. I think if Tolkien were alive today, he would
                      be impressed with the scholarship that has gone into the attempt to
                      unravel the secrets of Eldarin. We have enough examples of the soft and
                      nasal mutations to make some reasonable assumptions, and those who claim
                      to the contrary are _lying_.

                      Cuio mae, Danny.
                    • laurifindil <ejk@free.fr>
                      ... When Mr A ask How can I say z and Mr B writes : You can say it like that and that ... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent. I do not read
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 4, 2003
                        --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, DDanielA@w... wrote:
                        > Teithant Edouard Kloczko:
                        > >Gildor will you never stop pretending to be fluent
                        > >in Quenya and Sindarin, are you? :-(
                        >
                        > Gildor has never claimed to be fluent in either Eldarin language, nor
                        > has anyone on Elfscript or Elfling, AFAICR.


                        When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes : "You can say it like
                        that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is pretty fluent.

                        I do not read often (to say the least) things like "I do not know", or
                        even a simple "maybe"...
                      • Gildor Inglorion
                        teithant laurifindil ... apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider it
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 4, 2003
                          teithant "laurifindil <ejk@...>"

                          > When Mr A ask "How can I say z" and Mr B writes :
                          > "You can say it like
                          > that and that"... sound, read and looks like Mr B is
                          > pretty fluent.
                          >
                          > I do not read often (to say the least) things like
                          > "I do not know", or
                          > even a simple "maybe"...

                          apology: sometimes i am quite tired, and all i want is
                          to give a definite answer (that means, if i consider
                          it possible of course), and not a full analysis of how
                          and why i picked/made some words..

                          i' m sure the newbie who asked this translation for a
                          RPG game or a nickname, is not interested in this..
                          he/she wants an answer, and it's ok with me and my
                          conscience that i tried to make a sentence according
                          to what i know about Elvish, and didn't 'fool' him/her
                          with some alien words ('reflection' in sindarin? oh i
                          have it right here, published in my secret personal
                          dictionary, it's 'gwenniathreg')

                          i have been numerous times proven wrong, and every
                          time i give an answer, i also rely on the critical eye
                          of the other elflingers who correct me

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