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Re: [elfling] Oore, roomen, halla, etc.

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    (I hope Daniel won t mind me forwarding this letter to ElfScript too.) ... I agree with you: most evidence seems to suggest that spelling in the Third Age was
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 21, 2001
      (I hope Daniel won't mind me forwarding this letter to ElfScript too.)

      "D. Daniel Andriës" wrote:
      >
      > My opinion is that we could think of the LotR and QS eras as times of
      > non-standardised orthographies much like Europe's Mediæval and Rennaissance
      > years. I agree with the usual practice of using 'rómen' before a vowel and
      > 'óre' before consonants and finally, but I can see no reason that some
      > scribes wouldn't use them interchangeably.

      I agree with you: most evidence seems to suggest that spelling in the
      Third Age was far from standardized; or, at least, adhered to several
      different "schools". This in itself is an interesting topic of study --
      but when writing myself I prefer to follow one of the set of rules that
      were demonstrably in use.


      > It is possible that the word
      > 'óre' would be spelt with that letter rather than 'rómen'. After all, let's
      > look at the tengwar representation of "Namárië": JRRT himself uses 'silme'
      > rather than 'súle' to transcribe the 's' in the words 'sindanóriello' and
      > 'hísië'...and we know better, don't we?

      Yes, and here there is obviously a difference between the orthography
      described by Tolkien and that used in _Namárie_. However <óre> was used
      elsewhere by his contemporaries, I don't think the _Namárie_ scribe
      would have used it in "óre".


      > And then there's the King's Letter,
      > versions I. II and III. I know that they are in Sindarin, not Quenya, but
      > the rules of the use of 'r' are generally assumed to be based on Quenya
      > usage. JRRT used 'óre' and 'rómen' interchangeably. E.g., in version III, he
      > spelt 'Perhael' with 'rómen', but 'Pherhael' (the mutated form) with
      > 'óre'...surely they should be written with the same tengwa?

      It seems certain they represent the same sound, at least. Kloczko noted
      earlier that Feanor was primarily interested in writing "in its
      practical and its decorative aspects", though one may wonder how great
      impact that had on spelling conventions more than six thousand years
      later. But leaving that aside, during the middle ages it was common
      practice to use "decorative spelling", adding some letters here and
      there (often _h_ -- as we all know "Thame with an _h_ is a folly without
      warrant"), just because it made the words look better. Now if a Dúnadan
      of the Fourth Age found himself able to write /r/ in two different ways,
      he would surely make use of that flexibility.


      > As for 'halla', my understanding is that 'halla' was used in archaic
      > Quenya, but replaced by 'hyarmen' later. His wording in the footnote in App.
      > E implies as much, to my understanding. But 'halla' may have been spelt with
      > the letter 'halla' originally, for (apparently) 'hyarmen' in earlier times
      > represented 'hy' and there was no way to spell the breath 'h' except with a
      > 'halla'.

      Here I agree completely. The real question is, why was <halla>
      disbanded? Perhaps it was felt unpractical not being able to place a
      tehta above it (in which case <hyarmen> was a swell replacement... ;-)
      Perhaps another possibility is that the original /h/ merged with the /x/
      of <harma>, so that for a time <halla> was not required for anything but
      devoicing /r/ and /l/?


      > 'Yanta' and 'úre'...why not with those letters? In days of non-standard
      > spelling, surely 'yanta' could be used as a consonant by some scribes as
      > well as a semi-vowel. And 'úre' might have been spelt by some as 'u' curl
      > over 'úre' + 'e' accent over 'rómen'...'uu' diphthong = 'ú'.

      Not impossible. In fact, there would be a predecessor for this in the
      Sarati, where long /u/ is written with a sarat for /w/ + /u/ diacritic.
      But again, it would be a deviation from any spelling convention we've
      seen.

      Yours,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
    • Lisa Star
      ... But leaving that aside, during the middle ages it was common ... **I think this is a correct point. Most consonants in tengwar have descenders that extend
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 21, 2001
        >Mans Bjorkman <mansb@...> wrote:

        But leaving that aside, during the middle ages it was common
        >practice to use "decorative spelling", adding some letters here and
        >there (often _h_ -- as we all know "Thame with an _h_ is a folly without
        >warrant"), just because it made the words look better. Now if a D�nadan
        >of the Fourth Age found himself able to write /r/ in two different ways,
        >he would surely make use of that flexibility.

        **I think this is a correct point. Most consonants in tengwar have
        descenders that extend down and somewhat to the left, depending on how long
        and curly you want to make them. An r of the romen type has a very wide
        descending loop which would tend to interfere with these but ore would fit
        well preceding such letters. I think is the reason ore is preferred in
        combination with another consonant (preceding it). In addition, ore at the
        end of a word is nice because the luva can have a "fish tail"--a type of
        flourish--extended to the right, which gives a nice flourish to the end of
        the word and relieves stress in the calligrapher's hand, not coincidentally.
        This seems to be the choice that is made in the Namarie poem.

        **I don't quite consider this to be decorative so much as it increases
        readability and relieves writer's cramp--a serious consideration for
        manuscript producers.

        ** Lisa Star
        ** LisaStar@...
        _________________________________________________________________
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      • BP Jonsson
        ... I agree most emphatically. I have uploaded my hypothesis on what Feanorin orthography was like to , since a picture
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 22, 2001
          At 17:23 2001-03-21 +0100, Mans Bjorkman wrote:
          >"D. Daniel Andriës" wrote:
          > >
          > > My opinion is that we could think of the LotR and QS eras as times of
          > > non-standardised orthographies much like Europe's Mediæval and Rennaissance
          > > years. I agree with the usual practice of using 'rómen' before a vowel and
          > > 'óre' before consonants and finally, but I can see no reason that some
          > > scribes wouldn't use them interchangeably.
          >
          >I agree with you: most evidence seems to suggest that spelling in the
          >Third Age was far from standardized; or, at least, adhered to several
          >different "schools". This in itself is an interesting topic of study --
          >but when writing myself I prefer to follow one of the set of rules that
          >were demonstrably in use.


          I agree most emphatically. I have uploaded my hypothesis on what Feanorin
          orthography was like to <http://www.netg.se/~bp/tengwanda.jpg>, since a
          picture says more than a thousand words...




          /BP 8^)>
          --
          B.Philip Jonsson mailto:bpX@... (delete X)
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        • Jeremie Knusel
          I m just wondering... where are columns 7 and 8 from? ... From: BP Jonsson To: Cc: ;
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 24, 2001
            I'm just wondering... where are columns 7 and 8 from?

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "BP Jonsson" <bpj@...>
            To: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>
            Cc: <elfling@yahoogroups.com>; "ElfScript" <elfscript@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 1:42 PM
            Subject: [elfscript] Re: [elfling] Oore, roomen, halla, etc.


            [...]
            I have uploaded my hypothesis on what Feanorin
            orthography was like to <http://www.netg.se/~bp/tengwanda.jpg>, since a
            picture says more than a thousand words...
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