Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [elfling] Oore, Roomen and Halla

Expand Messages
  • Mans Bjorkman
    I am CC:ing this message to ElfScript, where it might be found interesting. ... Ah! Nice point. However, I do not agree that It look as if oore should not
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 20, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      I am CC:ing this message to ElfScript, where it might be found
      interesting.

      "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
      >
      > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
      > >
      > > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
      > > >
      > > > But the tengwesta was more concerned about aesthetic
      > > > than ortho-graph.
      > >
      > > Has Tolkien stated this somewhere?
      >
      > In Esse (published in VT39) : "But Fëanor [...] primary interest was in
      > _writting_, in its practical and its decorative aspects rather than as an
      > accurate phonetic transcription."

      Ah! Nice point. However, I do not agree that "It look as if oore should
      not have any tehtar on it (e.g. ar, lantar)." In this particular mode it
      is a natural consequence of <óre> not being used for prevocalic /r/, but
      in several other samples <óre> is used with tehtar. I can see no reason
      why that particular combination would be less decorative than, say,
      <anna> with tehtar.


      > > > It look as if oore should not have any tehtar on it (e.g.
      > > > ar, lantar). In rámar the first r is roomen, the last an oore. In Namárie oore
      > > > is used only as final r, which would not be the case in the word _oore_
      > > > itself.
      > >
      > > In Appendix E to The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien explains it thusly:
      > > "[óre] was often used for a weak (untrilled) _r_, originally occurring
      > > in Quenya ... [rómen] was used for 'full' trilled _r_." Since these R:s
      > > had merged to "a trilled _r_ in all positions", the distribution of
      > > <óre> and <rómen> in Namárie might be either an archaism or some sort of
      > > aesthetic preference.
      >
      > I don't remember a place where T. states that these 2 R merged into a one
      > trilled _r_ in all positions in Quenya. What is written about R in Part I of
      > Appe E : "R represents a trilled r in all positions" is, I believe, not to be
      > taken as implying this in Quenya, but as a _general statement_ for
      > Middle-earth’s languages. This is why Tolkien wrote "originally" (cf. supra).
      >
      > It think that Quenya had these 2 R sounds _at the same time_ up to the Middle
      > Quenya period (at the least).

      I believe that is what I meant. "Originally" there were two
      pronounciations of R, one trilled an one untrilled. But since, in The
      Lord of the Rings, "R represents a trilled r in all positions", the
      untrilled pronounciation must have vanished, presumably by merging with
      the trilled pronounciation.


      > In Noldorin Modern Quenya z > untrilled r ; cf.
      > "z became
      > merged with 21" not 25! The rhotacisme is a change that was initiated late, and
      > could be used to mark the change of Middle Quenya > Modern Quenya.

      Yes, /z/ merged with the untrilled R pronounciation. What are you
      getting at?


      > > > So far there is not a single Tolkien tengwar text published with a _halla_ in
      > > > it. Most probably, halla was used only in Classical and Middle Quenya for hl- and
      > > > hr-
      > >
      > > Why not in Third Age Quenya? In Rivendell the month-name _hríve_ was
      > > still in use. Quite possibly older _hl_ was still written as such, since
      > > Tolkien often chooses to transcribe it so.
      >
      > hl- is stated to be a "(archaic) Quenya" feature.
      > This I take to mean that it was not used/pronounced so in Exilic Quenya, but
      > was "normal" in Classical Quenya.

      I interpret the parenthesis around "archaic", and the statement that it
      was "usually pronunced as _l_", as meaning that the pronounciation _hl_
      could still occur. This makes it seem even more likely that
      <halla>+<lambe> would be maintained in writing, though it probably
      wasn't absolutely necessary.


      > It would be strange if /hl/ > /l/ but not /hr/ > /r/

      And yet Tolkien makes no mention of it in Appendix E. Are there any
      examples of original _sr-_ being written as _r-_?


      > (as spoken,
      > probabaly still written hr and hl).

      Well, then you agree that _hr_ and _hl_ were probably still written
      using <halla> in the Third Age?


      > But anyhow /hr/ is just an "allophone" of
      > R in Quenya.

      On what do you base that?


      > I don't think that "Third Age Quenya", so much used at Elfling and elswhere,
      > does convey a clear meaning.
      > Quenya in Me was either "Númenorean Quenya" (as used especially by the
      > Númenoreans in their writings in the Second and the Third Age ; it was not
      > spoken) or "Exilic Quenya" (the Quenya as spoken and written by the
      > Etyangoldor).

      I would be happy to use another name for the language in question, if
      Tolkien had only been more precise in his description of the
      pronounciation. Unfortunately, it isn't stated that _hl_ was pronounced
      _l_ by the Dúnedain, but not by Galadriel.


      > > > *and* also in words like _halla_, _helle_ (Ety), _hore_ (VT41), e.g.
      > > > before initial Q. /x/ > /h/ and was confused with initial /ha/, /he/,
      > > > /ho/ from other sources.
      > >
      > > I wouldn't be more inclined to write "halla" with <halla> than to write
      > > "óre" with <óre>.
      >
      > Well... Tolkien wrote : "Each 'full name' was an actual word in Quenya that
      > contained the letter in question".
      > But actually nor yanta or uure
      > could be written with a "yanta" or an "ure" (despite what is written in "An
      > Introduction to Elvish"). But I think that beside these two tengwar, used only
      > for the diphthongs in Quenya, oore was written with an "oore" and halla with a "halla".

      I think not, but since the orthography apparently wasn't very strictly
      enforced, I guess it would have been alright.


      > > > Unfortunately, we don't have the root of _halla_ in the published corpus.
      > >
      > > No, but wouldn't it seem likely that it derives from the same root as
      > > Sindarin _hall_ "exalted, high" < KHAL-2?
      >
      > No it could not. Because halla "could be placed before a consonant to indicate
      > that it was _unvoiced_ and _breathed_".

      That is, the tengwa <halla>, not necessarily the _h_ sound of "halla".


      > And CE /kh/- > Proto-Quenya /x/- [only later "Middle Quenya" > /h/-].
      >
      > Halla should come from the root *3AL- (but it is not recorded in the published corpus).

      OK, perhaps there was a weaker root corresponding to KHAL-2, but then
      perhaps *HAL- rather than *3AL-. According to The Etymologies, _3_ gave
      rise to _h_, but in "Quendi and Eldar", old _3_ is said to have vanished
      in Quenya while old _h_ gave rise to Quenya _h_, suggesting that _3_ in
      Etym is an "error" for _h_.


      Yours,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... Since Tolkien is careful to point out that Quenya originally possessed a weak _r_, I see no reason to disbelieve the statement that R represents a
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 24, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
        >
        > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
        > >
        > > [...] "Originally" there were two
        > > pronounciations of R, one trilled an one untrilled. But since, in The
        > > Lord of the Rings, "R represents a trilled r in all positions", the
        > > untrilled pronounciation must have vanished, presumably by merging with
        > > the trilled pronounciation.
        >
        > This, as I said, is _not_ my view anymore. I believe today that the passage
        > you cite ("R represents a trilled r in all positions" in Appe E) _should not_ be
        > narrowly applied to Quenya. It is a warning addressed to the English reader, who
        > should not "drop" his R in the alien tongues of the "Lord of the Rings".
        >
        > The 2 Rs of Quenya (roomen & oore) co-existed at the same time and did not merged.

        Since Tolkien is careful to point out that Quenya "originally" possessed
        a weak _r_, I see no reason to disbelieve the statement that "R
        represents a trilled r in all positions". I agree that the
        pronounciation description in Appendix E is somewhat simplified, but I
        have yet to see any evidence that it is erroneous.


        > > > In Noldorin Modern Quenya z > untrilled r ; cf.
        > > > "z became
        > > > merged with 21" not 25! The rhotacisme is a change that was initiated late, and
        > > > could be used to mark the change of Middle Quenya > Modern Quenya.
        > >
        > > Yes, /z/ merged with the untrilled R pronounciation. What are you
        > > getting at?
        >
        > The rhotacisme was a late phenomena in the history of Amanian Quenya. Note
        > that in Me Quenya _did_ not change (cf. Plotz Letter). The change exemplified
        > in Appe E happened in Eldamar.
        > It is stated in Appe E that in the z sound of Middle Quenya merged with the
        > tengwa 21 not 25 (e.g. this change z > r happened _only_ in Noldorin Quenya).
        >
        > This means that the tegnwa 21, the "weak r", was at that late period of
        > the history of Quenya (when Vanyarin and Noldorin finally became two distinct
        > dialects, or _geolects_) a valid phoneme.

        I agree. So the two R-sounds probably merged some time after this but
        before the War of the Ring, more than six thousand years later.


        > The 2 Rs were in complementary distribution most probably.

        Most probably.


        > > > But anyhow /hr/ is just an "allophone" of
        > > > R in Quenya.
        > >
        > > On what do you base that?
        >
        > On my own "brains". ;-)
        >
        > hr can only appear in one place in Q., at the begging of a word, that is
        > enough to make the phoneme /hr/ an "allophone" of an arch-phoneme R in Quenya.
        > But the distinction hr/r was "perceived" by the Elvish ear.

        This is not how I was taught to identify allophones. You might as well
        call the breath _h_ an allophone of /r/ on the same grounds. The fact
        that the Elves perceived the difference between _hr_ and _r_ should
        rather indicate that they *were* different phonemes. There doesn't seem
        to exist any attested _hr_/_r_ minimal pairs, but it should be beyond
        doubt that the two sounds could occur in identical phonological contexts
        in quenya, e.g. _hríve_/_ríma_.


        Yours,
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.