Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [elfscript] Re: Tengwar Mode: German

Expand Messages
  • Mark A Miles
    ... Because a German Z is like ts --e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced tsayt gayst. -Mark
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 5, 2003
      On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@... wrote:

      > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel bad for
      > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the 'doubled
      > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like |x|?

      Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced tsayt'gayst.

      -Mark
    • draqonfayir@juno.com
      On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Mark A Miles ... - Exactly! That s what i meant. If x (ks) can be encoded as |K + S-curl|, then z (ts) could be
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 5, 2003
        On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Mark A Miles
        <nine9@...> writes:
        > On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@... wrote:
        > > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel
        > bad for
        > > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the
        > 'doubled
        > > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like
        > > |x|?

        > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
        > tsayt'gayst.
        > -Mark
        -

        Exactly! That's what i meant.
        If "x" (ks) can be encoded as |K + S-curl|,
        then "z" (ts) could be encoded as |T + S-curl|.


        -Stephen (Steg)
        "there is darkness all around us;
        but if darkness *is*, and the darkness is of the forest,
        then the darkness must be good."
        ~ song of the BaMbuti in troubled times
      • Christian Thalmann <cinga@gmx.net>
        ... bad for ... doubled ... Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 10, 2003
          --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Mark A Miles <nine9@u...> wrote:
          > On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@j... wrote:
          >
          > > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel
          bad for
          > > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the
          'doubled
          > > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like |x|?

          Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed
          tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like this.



          > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
          tsayt'gayst.

          Tsight-gighst, actually.



          -- Christian Thalmann
        • Liesbeth Flobbe
          I m jumping in on the German discussion, although I must warn that my pronunciation of it isn t too good (I m Dutch). ... This is interesting. I agree that |z|
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 11, 2003
            I'm jumping in on the German discussion, although I must warn that my
            pronunciation of it isn't too good (I'm Dutch).

            On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 10:21:09PM -0000, Christian Thalmann <cinga@...> wrote:
            > Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed
            > tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like this.

            This is interesting. I agree that |z| should be represented as a unitary
            sound, not as an arbitrary cluster in -s (as the s-hook variant would do).
            Indeed, |z| and |pf| are both affricates (combinations of plosive and
            fricative). The double stems seem very fitting for these sounds, since they
            combine exactly those features. Tolkien seems to have intended them for
            aspirates (plosive + breath) at first, but only when these were really
            phonemically distinct from normal plosives (which they aren't in English or
            German). So I really like this choice.

            One question: I perceive |tsch| as an affricate as well, rather than a
            plosive. That is because I can both pronounce and recognize a version of
            this sound without any s-sound in it (Dutch has a cluster with this sound).
            However, I must admit that I'm unable to do so with the voiced version of
            this sound, so maybe the unvoiced sounds are much closer than I think as
            well. Or maybe palatals are just weird...
            So my question is: if the double stems are to represent affricates,
            have you considered moving |tsch| there as well?

            About |h|: I like your choice about it and I think it fits nice. The only
            problem might be that the other sounds in the same row are voiced, while |h|
            isn't. But it's actually the other sounds being out of place, with only
            one luva (bow). And everyone accepts that...

            > > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
            > tsayt'gayst.
            >
            > Tsight-gighst, actually.

            Tsight-ghighst, I think, so you can know for certain that you shoudn't use
            a soft g. But two completely different 'gh'-s in ons syllable get really
            confusing.

            Hmm, |ai| as in 'aisle' would make things a lot easier it seems.

            --
            Liesbeth Flobbe <flobbe@...>

            "There are two major products that came out of U Cal Berkley:
            LSD and Unix.
            We do not believe this to be a coincidence."
            --Jeremy S. Anderson
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.