Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Tengwar Mode: German

Expand Messages
  • draqonfayir@juno.com
    On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:24:22 +0100 Christian Thalmann ... - I don t know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel bad for ... S
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 4, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:24:22 +0100 Christian Thalmann <cinga@...>
      writes:
      > This talk about a Hebrew tengwar mode has finally led me to make the
      > German tengwar mode I had always planned to make one day...
      > http://catharsis.netpeople.ch/langmaking/DTM/dtm.html
      > Comments? (It's in German, I'm afraid... ;-)
      > -- Christian Thalmann
      -

      I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel bad for
      |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the 'doubled
      S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like |x|?


      -Stephen (Steg)
      "dos iz nit der šteg."
    • Mark A Miles
      ... Because a German Z is like ts --e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced tsayt gayst. -Mark
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 5, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@... wrote:

        > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel bad for
        > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the 'doubled
        > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like |x|?

        Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced tsayt'gayst.

        -Mark
      • draqonfayir@juno.com
        On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Mark A Miles ... - Exactly! That s what i meant. If x (ks) can be encoded as |K + S-curl|, then z (ts) could be
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 5, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:10:52 +0000 (GMT) Mark A Miles
          <nine9@...> writes:
          > On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@... wrote:
          > > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel
          > bad for
          > > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the
          > 'doubled
          > > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like
          > > |x|?

          > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
          > tsayt'gayst.
          > -Mark
          -

          Exactly! That's what i meant.
          If "x" (ks) can be encoded as |K + S-curl|,
          then "z" (ts) could be encoded as |T + S-curl|.


          -Stephen (Steg)
          "there is darkness all around us;
          but if darkness *is*, and the darkness is of the forest,
          then the darkness must be good."
          ~ song of the BaMbuti in troubled times
        • Christian Thalmann <cinga@gmx.net>
          ... bad for ... doubled ... Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 10, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In elfscript@yahoogroups.com, Mark A Miles <nine9@u...> wrote:
            > On Sat, 4 Jan 2003, draqonfayir@j... wrote:
            >
            > > I don't know German, but the system looks good! Although i feel
            bad for
            > > |w| /v/, stuck in a row all by itself. :-P Why did you use the
            'doubled
            > > S' letter for |z|, instead of a 'T + s-curl' combination like |x|?

            Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed
            tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like this.



            > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
            tsayt'gayst.

            Tsight-gighst, actually.



            -- Christian Thalmann
          • Liesbeth Flobbe
            I m jumping in on the German discussion, although I must warn that my pronunciation of it isn t too good (I m Dutch). ... This is interesting. I agree that |z|
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 11, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm jumping in on the German discussion, although I must warn that my
              pronunciation of it isn't too good (I'm Dutch).

              On Fri, Jan 10, 2003 at 10:21:09PM -0000, Christian Thalmann <cinga@...> wrote:
              > Meanwhile, I have moved both |z| and |ks| into the double-stemmed
              > tengwar, alongside |pf|. It does indeed make more sense like this.

              This is interesting. I agree that |z| should be represented as a unitary
              sound, not as an arbitrary cluster in -s (as the s-hook variant would do).
              Indeed, |z| and |pf| are both affricates (combinations of plosive and
              fricative). The double stems seem very fitting for these sounds, since they
              combine exactly those features. Tolkien seems to have intended them for
              aspirates (plosive + breath) at first, but only when these were really
              phonemically distinct from normal plosives (which they aren't in English or
              German). So I really like this choice.

              One question: I perceive |tsch| as an affricate as well, rather than a
              plosive. That is because I can both pronounce and recognize a version of
              this sound without any s-sound in it (Dutch has a cluster with this sound).
              However, I must admit that I'm unable to do so with the voiced version of
              this sound, so maybe the unvoiced sounds are much closer than I think as
              well. Or maybe palatals are just weird...
              So my question is: if the double stems are to represent affricates,
              have you considered moving |tsch| there as well?

              About |h|: I like your choice about it and I think it fits nice. The only
              problem might be that the other sounds in the same row are voiced, while |h|
              isn't. But it's actually the other sounds being out of place, with only
              one luva (bow). And everyone accepts that...

              > > Because a German Z is like 'ts'--e.g. Zeitgeist is pronounced
              > tsayt'gayst.
              >
              > Tsight-gighst, actually.

              Tsight-ghighst, I think, so you can know for certain that you shoudn't use
              a soft g. But two completely different 'gh'-s in ons syllable get really
              confusing.

              Hmm, |ai| as in 'aisle' would make things a lot easier it seems.

              --
              Liesbeth Flobbe <flobbe@...>

              "There are two major products that came out of U Cal Berkley:
              LSD and Unix.
              We do not believe this to be a coincidence."
              --Jeremy S. Anderson
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.