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Re: [elfscript] Tengwar Parmaite font now available

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  • Edward J. Kloczko
    ... ... The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what Tolkien have done. The double curls could have been usual in the
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 2 1:59 AM
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      Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
      >
      <snip>

      > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
      >
      > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
      > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
      > simply writing two consecutive curls.

      The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
      Tolkien have done.
      The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
      it to BS according to "Gandalf"). I find it niecer to have one caracter
      instead of typing two.

      <snip>

      >
      > > I have (as many) a photocopy of a text about numeral written
      > > by _hand_ by CT in which the luvar are in fact not closed.
      >
      > And how would one go about obtaining such a photocopy?
      >
      > > I don't know if my copy is the (2) text(s) as published in Quettar.
      > > Never had a copy of it.
      >
      > Well, as they appear in _Beyond Bree_ (December 1984) the luvar are
      > unquestionably closed. And this version appears to be hand written by
      > Christopher Tolkien too, since it is signed "CRT after JRRT 16 May
      > 1981".
      >

      An echange of our copies would be a good thing I guess.

      Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

      EJK
    • Emanuele Vicentini
      Greetings, ... Unfortunately I don t have that old issue of Quettar, but a small sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be downloaded
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 2 4:13 AM
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        Greetings,

        On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

        > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

        Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
        sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
        downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
        searching. It's a PostScript document.


        Saluti,
        Emanuele.

        "He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also
        liked runes and letters and cunning handwriting..."
        -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit
      • Edward J. Kloczko
        ... I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...). EJK
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 2 5:24 AM
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          Emanuele Vicentini a écrit:
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
          >
          > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
          >
          > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
          > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
          > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
          > searching. It's a PostScript document.

          I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).

          EJK
        • Michael Everson
          ... I ve translated it to PDF. See http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf -- Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta **
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 2 5:36 AM
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            At 14:24 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

            > > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
            > >
            > > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
            > > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
            > > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
            >> searching. It's a PostScript document.
            >
            >I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).

            I've translated it to PDF. See
            http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf
            --
            Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
            15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
            Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
            27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
          • Mans Bjorkman
            ... That is a reasonable speculation, yes. ... I assume you are referring to Gandalf s quoting Isildur s description of the Ring during the Council of Elrond
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 2 8:54 AM
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              "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
              >
              > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
              > >
              > <snip>
              >
              > > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
              > >
              > > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
              > > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
              > > simply writing two consecutive curls.
              >
              > The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
              > Tolkien have done.

              That is a reasonable speculation, yes.


              > The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
              > it to BS according to "Gandalf").

              I assume you are referring to Gandalf's quoting Isildur's description of
              the Ring during the Council of Elrond (so it's actually "according to
              'Isildur'")? The ring-inscription is described thus: "It is fashioned in
              an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such
              subtle work; but the language is unknown to me [i.e. Isildur]."

              I don't think this refers to the *mode* used on the Ring, but rather to
              the graphic style of the letters, or perhaps simply the writing system
              itself. Double curls were probably common in many modes outside Eregion
              (where, judging by the Moria Gate, the mode of Beleriand was the most
              popular for Sindarin). In an alternative Tengwar inscription of the
              beginning of _Namárie_, *all* vowels except _a_ are written with doubled
              tehtar whenever possible. I maintain, though, that the *ligature* curls
              were specific for the writing style used in the ring-inscription.


              > I find it niecer to have one caracter
              > instead of typing two.

              Well, it's difficult to argue against that.


              Regards,
              Måns


              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
            • Edward J. Kloczko
              ... Thank you very much! Vive PDF! ;-) Well, the only thing left now is someone with the Quettar... ;-) EJK
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 2 9:19 AM
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                Michael Everson a écrit:
                >
                > At 14:24 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
                >
                > > > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
                > > >
                > > > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
                > > > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
                > > > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
                > >> searching. It's a PostScript document.
                > >
                > >I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).
                >
                > I've translated it to PDF. See
                > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf

                Thank you very much!

                Vive PDF! ;-)

                Well, the only thing left now is someone with the Quettar... ;-)

                EJK
              • Edward J. Kloczko
                ... I don t have my books ta hand... I still think it is a mode... Come back to that later. It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2 9:33 AM
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                  Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
                  >
                  > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
                  > > >
                  > > <snip>
                  > >
                  > > > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
                  > > >
                  > > > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
                  > > > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
                  > > > simply writing two consecutive curls.
                  > >
                  > > The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
                  > > Tolkien have done.
                  >
                  > That is a reasonable speculation, yes.
                  >
                  > > The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
                  > > it to BS according to "Gandalf").
                  >
                  > I assume you are referring to Gandalf's quoting Isildur's description of
                  > the Ring during the Council of Elrond (so it's actually "according to
                  > 'Isildur'")? The ring-inscription is described thus: "It is fashioned in
                  > an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such
                  > subtle work; but the language is unknown to me [i.e. Isildur]."
                  >
                  > I don't think this refers to the *mode* used on the Ring, but rather to
                  > the graphic style of the letters, or perhaps simply the writing system
                  > itself. Double curls were probably common in many modes outside Eregion
                  > (where, judging by the Moria Gate, the mode of Beleriand was the most
                  > popular for Sindarin). In an alternative Tengwar inscription of the
                  > beginning of _Namárie_, *all* vowels except _a_ are written with doubled
                  > tehtar whenever possible. I maintain, though, that the *ligature* curls
                  > were specific for the writing style used in the ring-inscription.
                  >

                  I don't have my books ta hand... I still think it is a mode...
                  Come back to that later.

                  It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_ the
                  Ring-inscription, this would point towards the theory that my reconstruced
                  "Northern Mode" was in fact the only one used in the Shire at that time.

                  EJK
                • Michael Everson
                  ... I cannot read the fiery letters could simply mean that he didn t understand the Black Speech. -- Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta **
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2 10:01 AM
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                    At 18:33 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

                    >It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_ the
                    >Ring-inscription, this would point towards the theory that my reconstruced
                    >"Northern Mode" was in fact the only one used in the Shire at that time.

                    "I cannot read the fiery letters" could simply mean that he didn't
                    understand the Black Speech.
                    --
                    Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                    15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                    Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
                    27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                  • Helge K. Fauskanger
                    ... I installed it, and I can certainly recommend it. I find it very clear and legible. While no font can ever quite match the calligraphy that only a living
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 2 11:25 AM
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                      Måns Björkman wrote:
                      > Tengwar Parmaite font now available

                      I installed it, and I can certainly recommend it. I find it very clear and
                      legible. While no font can ever quite match the calligraphy that only a
                      living hand can achieve, the Parmaite font looks nice and tidy. If I were
                      to print a book in Tengwar, this font would probably be the one I would
                      use, based on the alternatives I have seen. (Not that most of these
                      alternatives were particularly bad, either!)

                      Visiting Måns' site, I also noticed that the problems I have earlier
                      experienced (my browser making an almost completely illegible mess of
                      everything) were largely gone. I am glad, for this is an admirable site;
                      Måns has done for the scripts what I have tried to do for the languages.
                      Congratulations!

                      - Helge Fauskanger
                    • Dan Smith
                      ... try here: http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip (75KB) It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the Beyond Bree (1984) articles on
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 2 4:51 PM
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                        >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:26 +0100
                        >From: "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...>
                        >Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

                        try here:
                        "http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)

                        It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                        Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.


                        --
                        Daniel Steven Smith / fontmaster@...
                        Fantasy Fonts for Windows / <><
                        http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/
                      • Lisa Star
                        ... **this address doesn t work. ... ** Lisa Star ** LisaStar@earthling.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 7 3:35 PM
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                          >From: Dan Smith <dansmith@...>
                          >Reply-To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                          >CC: ejk@...
                          >Subject: [elfscript] Re: Tengwar Parmaite font now available
                          >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:51:48 -0500
                          >
                          > >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:26 +0100
                          > >From: "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...>
                          > >Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
                          >
                          >try here:
                          >"http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)

                          **this address doesn't work.

                          >It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                          >Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.

                          ** Lisa Star
                          ** LisaStar@...
                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        • Dan Smith
                          ... I just tried it and it worked for me. Perhaps geocities was having one of it s fits when you were trying to download it.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 8 5:41 PM
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                            >>From: Dan Smith <dansmith@...>
                            >>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:51:48 -0500
                            >>"http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)
                            >>It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                            >>Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.
                            >
                            >Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:35:43 -0000
                            >From: "Lisa Star" <amlug4@...>
                            >**this address doesn't work.

                            I just tried it and it worked for me.
                            Perhaps geocities was having one of it's fits when
                            you were trying to download it.
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