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Re: [elfscript] Tengwar Parmaite font now available

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    ... It s in the works. ... As I understand, the ligature double curls only occur in the ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2001
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      Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
      >
      > Your documentation is in RTF. My TT converter
      > unfortunately does rearage the tengwar (I work only with Macs). So I
      > cannot interpert your RTF doc as it should be.
      > Could you make a PDF file instead?

      It's in the works.


      > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.

      As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
      ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
      simply writing two consecutive curls.


      > The tengwar are quite nice, but the "closing" telcor (the "bar" which makes
      > a calma into a quesse) are a little thick. The number are a little too thick
      > too.

      Well, that's the style of this font, I'm afraid.


      > Your _special_ number 6 from Argaorn's letter is in fact a "normal" 6 (from
      > what I have seen).

      Surely enough, the "Alternate form of _rómen_" is a normal _rómen_ which
      mistakenly was begun as an _óre_. I just happened to need this tengwa
      for a project I'm working on. :)

      > I have (as many) a photocopy of a text about numeral written
      > by _hand_ by CT in which the luvar are in fact not closed.

      And how would one go about obtaining such a photocopy?


      > I don't know if my copy is the (2) text(s) as published in Quettar.
      > Never had a copy of it.

      Well, as they appear in _Beyond Bree_ (December 1984) the luvar are
      unquestionably closed. And this version appears to be hand written by
      Christopher Tolkien too, since it is signed "CRT after JRRT 16 May
      1981".


      Regards,
      Måns


      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
    • Edward J. Kloczko
      ... ... The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what Tolkien have done. The double curls could have been usual in the
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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        Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
        >
        <snip>

        > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
        >
        > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
        > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
        > simply writing two consecutive curls.

        The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
        Tolkien have done.
        The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
        it to BS according to "Gandalf"). I find it niecer to have one caracter
        instead of typing two.

        <snip>

        >
        > > I have (as many) a photocopy of a text about numeral written
        > > by _hand_ by CT in which the luvar are in fact not closed.
        >
        > And how would one go about obtaining such a photocopy?
        >
        > > I don't know if my copy is the (2) text(s) as published in Quettar.
        > > Never had a copy of it.
        >
        > Well, as they appear in _Beyond Bree_ (December 1984) the luvar are
        > unquestionably closed. And this version appears to be hand written by
        > Christopher Tolkien too, since it is signed "CRT after JRRT 16 May
        > 1981".
        >

        An echange of our copies would be a good thing I guess.

        Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

        EJK
      • Emanuele Vicentini
        Greetings, ... Unfortunately I don t have that old issue of Quettar, but a small sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be downloaded
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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          Greetings,

          On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

          > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

          Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
          sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
          downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
          searching. It's a PostScript document.


          Saluti,
          Emanuele.

          "He loved maps, as I have told you before; and he also
          liked runes and letters and cunning handwriting..."
          -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit
        • Edward J. Kloczko
          ... I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...). EJK
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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            Emanuele Vicentini a écrit:
            >
            > Greetings,
            >
            > On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
            >
            > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
            >
            > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
            > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
            > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
            > searching. It's a PostScript document.

            I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).

            EJK
          • Michael Everson
            ... I ve translated it to PDF. See http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf -- Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta **
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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              At 14:24 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

              > > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
              > >
              > > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
              > > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
              > > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
              >> searching. It's a PostScript document.
              >
              >I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).

              I've translated it to PDF. See
              http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf
              --
              Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
              15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
              Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
              27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
            • Mans Bjorkman
              ... That is a reasonable speculation, yes. ... I assume you are referring to Gandalf s quoting Isildur s description of the Ring during the Council of Elrond
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
                >
                > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
                > >
                > <snip>
                >
                > > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
                > >
                > > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
                > > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
                > > simply writing two consecutive curls.
                >
                > The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
                > Tolkien have done.

                That is a reasonable speculation, yes.


                > The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
                > it to BS according to "Gandalf").

                I assume you are referring to Gandalf's quoting Isildur's description of
                the Ring during the Council of Elrond (so it's actually "according to
                'Isildur'")? The ring-inscription is described thus: "It is fashioned in
                an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such
                subtle work; but the language is unknown to me [i.e. Isildur]."

                I don't think this refers to the *mode* used on the Ring, but rather to
                the graphic style of the letters, or perhaps simply the writing system
                itself. Double curls were probably common in many modes outside Eregion
                (where, judging by the Moria Gate, the mode of Beleriand was the most
                popular for Sindarin). In an alternative Tengwar inscription of the
                beginning of _Namárie_, *all* vowels except _a_ are written with doubled
                tehtar whenever possible. I maintain, though, that the *ligature* curls
                were specific for the writing style used in the ring-inscription.


                > I find it niecer to have one caracter
                > instead of typing two.

                Well, it's difficult to argue against that.


                Regards,
                Måns


                --
                Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
                Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
                SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
                Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
              • Edward J. Kloczko
                ... Thank you very much! Vive PDF! ;-) Well, the only thing left now is someone with the Quettar... ;-) EJK
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                  Michael Everson a écrit:
                  >
                  > At 14:24 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
                  >
                  > > > > Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
                  > > >
                  > > > Unfortunately I don't have that old issue of Quettar, but a small
                  > > > sample of Quenya numerals (an extract of Quettar, actually) can be
                  > > > downloaded staring from http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/ and
                  > >> searching. It's a PostScript document.
                  > >
                  > >I was not able to interpret this document (even with Photoshop...).
                  >
                  > I've translated it to PDF. See
                  > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-numbers.pdf

                  Thank you very much!

                  Vive PDF! ;-)

                  Well, the only thing left now is someone with the Quettar... ;-)

                  EJK
                • Edward J. Kloczko
                  ... I don t have my books ta hand... I still think it is a mode... Come back to that later. It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                    Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
                    >
                    > "Edward J. Kloczko" wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
                    > > >
                    > > <snip>
                    > >
                    > > > > The double curls (for ú, ó) are missing.
                    > > >
                    > > > As I understand, the "ligature" double curls only occur in the
                    > > > ring-inscription style of writing. Doubled curls may be produced by
                    > > > simply writing two consecutive curls.
                    > >
                    > > The published corpus of tengwar inscription is _very_ small compared to what
                    > > Tolkien have done.
                    >
                    > That is a reasonable speculation, yes.
                    >
                    > > The double curls could have been "usual" in the "Eregion Mode" (Sauron adapted
                    > > it to BS according to "Gandalf").
                    >
                    > I assume you are referring to Gandalf's quoting Isildur's description of
                    > the Ring during the Council of Elrond (so it's actually "according to
                    > 'Isildur'")? The ring-inscription is described thus: "It is fashioned in
                    > an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such
                    > subtle work; but the language is unknown to me [i.e. Isildur]."
                    >
                    > I don't think this refers to the *mode* used on the Ring, but rather to
                    > the graphic style of the letters, or perhaps simply the writing system
                    > itself. Double curls were probably common in many modes outside Eregion
                    > (where, judging by the Moria Gate, the mode of Beleriand was the most
                    > popular for Sindarin). In an alternative Tengwar inscription of the
                    > beginning of _Namárie_, *all* vowels except _a_ are written with doubled
                    > tehtar whenever possible. I maintain, though, that the *ligature* curls
                    > were specific for the writing style used in the ring-inscription.
                    >

                    I don't have my books ta hand... I still think it is a mode...
                    Come back to that later.

                    It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_ the
                    Ring-inscription, this would point towards the theory that my reconstruced
                    "Northern Mode" was in fact the only one used in the Shire at that time.

                    EJK
                  • Michael Everson
                    ... I cannot read the fiery letters could simply mean that he didn t understand the Black Speech. -- Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta **
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                      At 18:33 +0100 2001-03-02, Edward J. Kloczko wrote:

                      >It reminds me that Frodo was (if I remember right) unable to _read_ the
                      >Ring-inscription, this would point towards the theory that my reconstruced
                      >"Northern Mode" was in fact the only one used in the Shire at that time.

                      "I cannot read the fiery letters" could simply mean that he didn't
                      understand the Black Speech.
                      --
                      Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                      15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                      Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
                      27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                    • Helge K. Fauskanger
                      ... I installed it, and I can certainly recommend it. I find it very clear and legible. While no font can ever quite match the calligraphy that only a living
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                        Måns Björkman wrote:
                        > Tengwar Parmaite font now available

                        I installed it, and I can certainly recommend it. I find it very clear and
                        legible. While no font can ever quite match the calligraphy that only a
                        living hand can achieve, the Parmaite font looks nice and tidy. If I were
                        to print a book in Tengwar, this font would probably be the one I would
                        use, based on the alternatives I have seen. (Not that most of these
                        alternatives were particularly bad, either!)

                        Visiting Måns' site, I also noticed that the problems I have earlier
                        experienced (my browser making an almost completely illegible mess of
                        everything) were largely gone. I am glad, for this is an admirable site;
                        Måns has done for the scripts what I have tried to do for the languages.
                        Congratulations!

                        - Helge Fauskanger
                      • Dan Smith
                        ... try here: http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip (75KB) It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the Beyond Bree (1984) articles on
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 2, 2001
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                          >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:26 +0100
                          >From: "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...>
                          >Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?

                          try here:
                          "http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)

                          It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                          Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.


                          --
                          Daniel Steven Smith / fontmaster@...
                          Fantasy Fonts for Windows / <><
                          http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/
                        • Lisa Star
                          ... **this address doesn t work. ... ** Lisa Star ** LisaStar@earthling.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 7, 2001
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                            >From: Dan Smith <dansmith@...>
                            >Reply-To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: elfscript@yahoogroups.com
                            >CC: ejk@...
                            >Subject: [elfscript] Re: Tengwar Parmaite font now available
                            >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:51:48 -0500
                            >
                            > >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:26 +0100
                            > >From: "Edward J. Kloczko" <ejk@...>
                            > >Anyone has a copy of the "Quettar" with the numerals?
                            >
                            >try here:
                            >"http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)

                            **this address doesn't work.

                            >It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                            >Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.

                            ** Lisa Star
                            ** LisaStar@...
                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                          • Dan Smith
                            ... I just tried it and it worked for me. Perhaps geocities was having one of it s fits when you were trying to download it.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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                              >>From: Dan Smith <dansmith@...>
                              >>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:51:48 -0500
                              >>"http://www.geocities.com/fontwizard/tengnum.zip" (75KB)
                              >>It contains PDFs of both the Quettar (1987) and the
                              >>Beyond Bree (1984) articles on numerals.
                              >
                              >Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:35:43 -0000
                              >From: "Lisa Star" <amlug4@...>
                              >**this address doesn't work.

                              I just tried it and it worked for me.
                              Perhaps geocities was having one of it's fits when
                              you were trying to download it.
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