- Danny teithant:
> Teithant xeeniseit:Most probably yes. This means that there can be modes where the tengwa-
> >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
> >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
> >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
> >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
> Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal
> bar itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the
> ómatehtar are placed on the preceding tengwar and where the bar would
> probably be used to represent nasalisation. In "Artist and
> Illustrator" we see Tolkien's tengwar rendering of _Lúthien Tinúviel_
> in this mode, and in the 'Sotheby Letter' we see _Imladrist_ (sic) in
> this mode. In _Tinúviel_ ampa represents 'v' and in _Imladrist_ ando
> represents 'd', so we must assume that nasalised stops are not
> written with grades 2 and 4 as in Quenya. It is logical to assume
> that the nasal bar would be used as in the other known Sindarin
> tengwar modes.
tehtar order depends on the tehtar you have. If it's a nasal bar, the
reading order is tehta-tengwa, but if it's a vowel techta, the reading
order is tengwa-tehta, and if it's even both, the reading order is
techta1-tengwa-tehta2 - awfully difficult!
Is there no possibility to save Tolkien from being the autor of so much
confusion? I see several ways for doing so:
1) We can suppose Tolkien'd never have used a nasal bar in a mode which
places the vowel techtar on the preceding tengwa. But what about the
example Erestel referred?
> And what about the quenya sentence 'Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello'I don't know it. But it seems to kill this supposition (if it's a
> [A&I n°189] ?
oomatehtar Quenya mode which makes use of the nasal bar).
2) All human make errors. Tolkien was a human. --> Attested examples of
modes with changing tengwar-tehtar-order are erroneous.
3) The nasal bar doesn't come before or after the tengwa it's placed
above, but attributes the global property of "nasality" to the
consonant represented by that tengwa (analogous to the underbar, which
doesn't come after or before the tengwa, but indicates a longer
duration of the sound assigned to that tengwa).
4) Who said there was any logic or structure or order or similar
unnecessary stuff in the tengwar? There's no bad thing about causing
Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.
--- In elfscript@y..., "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:
> Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
> constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
> variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
> the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.
Nothing needed be avoided... :-)
I suggest we study what Tolkien wrote in tengwar, and he wrote A LOT.