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Re: [elfscript] westron

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  • Gildor Inglorion
    teithant xeeniseit ... no, there isn t information on any published book i think :) the known information is published in magazines like VT, TT and PE you can
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 7, 2002
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      teithant xeeniseit

      > Is there any place out there in the web where I can
      > get informations
      > about variants between different Westron modes? (I'm
      > afraid all the
      > libraries I have access to don't possess the books
      > about this.)

      no, there isn't information on any published book i
      think :) the known information is published in
      magazines like VT, TT and PE

      you can extrapolate knowledge from the english tengwar
      spelling and the english tengwar version of the King's
      letter (it's a full mode, like the Mode of Beleriand,
      and it's known as the northern variant)

      alo, try to look at my History of Elvish Writing in
      gwaith-i-phethdain (an old version unfortunately) for
      an analysis of them

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    • laurifindil
      ... Do you mean Westron mode_s_ to write Sôval Phâre as seen in the covers of LOTR or in the Book of Mazarbûl or the modes to write English with tengwar?
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 7, 2002
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        --- In elfscript@y..., "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:
        > Is there any place out there in the web where I can get informations
        > about variants between different Westron modes? (I'm afraid all the
        > libraries I have access to don't possess the books about this.)
        >

        Do you mean "Westron mode_s_" to write Sôval Phâre as seen in the
        covers of LOTR or in the Book of Mazarbûl or the modes to write
        English with tengwar?

        If you read French and want a book you can get these modes in my
        recent book :

        "Dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains, des Orques"
        see http://www.xs4all.nl/~rossnbrg/worksont.htm
      • xeeniseit
        Is there any attested example of a mode which has the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there isn t,
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 18, 2002
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          Is there any attested example of a mode which has the vowel
          tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar AND uses the bar to
          represent nasals? I suppose there isn't, but I better ask others
          than supposing anything.
          suilaid, xeeniseit
        • DDanielA@webtv.net
          ... Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal bar itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the ómatehtar are placed
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 18, 2002
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            Teithant xeeniseit:
            >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
            >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
            >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
            >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
            >anything.

            Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal bar
            itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the
            ómatehtar are placed on the preceding tengwar and where the bar would
            probably be used to represent nasalisation. In "Artist and Illustrator"
            we see Tolkien's tengwar rendering of _Lúthien Tinúviel_ in this
            mode, and in the 'Sotheby Letter' we see _Imladrist_ (sic) in this mode.
            In _Tinúviel_ ampa represents 'v' and in _Imladrist_ ando represents
            'd', so we must assume that nasalised stops are not written with grades
            2 and 4 as in Quenya. It is logical to assume that the nasal bar would
            be used as in the other known Sindarin tengwar modes.

            Cuio mae, Danny.
          • Erestel
            ... And what about the quenya sentence Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello [A&I n°189] ? Jérôme
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 19, 2002
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              > Teithant xeeniseit:
              > >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
              > >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
              > >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
              > >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
              > >anything.
              >


              And what about the quenya sentence 'Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello'
              [A&I n°189] ?

              Jérôme
            • xeeniseit
              ... Most probably yes. This means that there can be modes where the tengwa- tehtar order depends on the tehtar you have. If it s a nasal bar, the reading order
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 2, 2002
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                Danny teithant:

                > Teithant xeeniseit:
                > >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
                > >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
                > >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
                > >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
                > >anything.
                >
                > Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal
                > bar itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the
                > ómatehtar are placed on the preceding tengwar and where the bar would
                > probably be used to represent nasalisation. In "Artist and
                > Illustrator" we see Tolkien's tengwar rendering of _Lúthien Tinúviel_
                > in this mode, and in the 'Sotheby Letter' we see _Imladrist_ (sic) in
                > this mode. In _Tinúviel_ ampa represents 'v' and in _Imladrist_ ando
                > represents 'd', so we must assume that nasalised stops are not
                > written with grades 2 and 4 as in Quenya. It is logical to assume
                > that the nasal bar would be used as in the other known Sindarin
                > tengwar modes.

                Most probably yes. This means that there can be modes where the tengwa-
                tehtar order depends on the tehtar you have. If it's a nasal bar, the
                reading order is tehta-tengwa, but if it's a vowel techta, the reading
                order is tengwa-tehta, and if it's even both, the reading order is
                techta1-tengwa-tehta2 - awfully difficult!

                Is there no possibility to save Tolkien from being the autor of so much
                confusion? I see several ways for doing so:


                1) We can suppose Tolkien'd never have used a nasal bar in a mode which
                places the vowel techtar on the preceding tengwa. But what about the
                example Erestel referred?

                > And what about the quenya sentence 'Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello'
                > [A&I n°189] ?

                I don't know it. But it seems to kill this supposition (if it's a
                oomatehtar Quenya mode which makes use of the nasal bar).

                2) All human make errors. Tolkien was a human. --> Attested examples of
                modes with changing tengwar-tehtar-order are erroneous.

                3) The nasal bar doesn't come before or after the tengwa it's placed
                above, but attributes the global property of "nasality" to the
                consonant represented by that tengwa (analogous to the underbar, which
                doesn't come after or before the tengwa, but indicates a longer
                duration of the sound assigned to that tengwa).

                4) Who said there was any logic or structure or order or similar
                unnecessary stuff in the tengwar? There's no bad thing about causing
                confusion.


                Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
                constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
                variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
                the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.

                suilaid
                xeeniseit
              • laurifindil
                ... ... Nothing needed be avoided... :-) I suggest we study what Tolkien wrote in tengwar, and he wrote A LOT. ;-)
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 2, 2002
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                  --- In elfscript@y..., "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:

                  <snip>
                  >
                  >
                  > Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
                  > constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
                  > variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
                  > the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.


                  Nothing needed be avoided... :-)

                  I suggest we study what Tolkien wrote in tengwar, and he wrote A LOT.
                  ;-)
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