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Help on translation

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  • andy_boxman
    Hi, i am trying to translate from english to tengwar cursive using sindarian(?) and would like to double check my results as i plan to have this tattoed and
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 3, 2002
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      Hi, i am trying to translate from english to tengwar cursive using
      sindarian(?) and would like to double check my results as i plan to
      have this tattoed and would like it to be accurate.

      the phrase is; Love all, trust a few, do harm to none

      I have used the Tengscribe program but am not sure if it translate's
      into elvish before using the tengwar cursive font.

      Andy
    • andy_boxman
      Hi, i am trying to translate from english to tengwar cursive using sindarian(?) and would like to double check my results as i plan to have this tattoed and
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 3, 2002
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        Hi, i am trying to translate from english to tengwar cursive using
        sindarian(?) and would like to double check my results as i plan to
        have this tattoed and would like it to be accurate.

        the phrase is; Love all, trust a few, do harm to none

        I have used the Tengscribe program but am not sure if it translate's
        into elvish before using the tengwar cursive font.

        Andy
      • Gildor Inglorion
        teithant andy_boxman ... you mean: translate from english to Sindarin, and transcribe it to tengwar the term translate is from one language to another..
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 3, 2002
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          teithant andy_boxman

          > Hi, i am trying to translate from english to tengwar
          > cursive using
          > sindarian(?) and would like to double check my

          you mean: translate from english to Sindarin, and
          transcribe it to tengwar

          the term "translate" is from one language to another..
          tengwar is a writing system not a language :)

          "cursive" is not a writing system, but a "hand".. the
          hand you use doesn't affect the way you transcribe
          with tengwar :)

          > results as i plan to
          > have this tattoed and would like it to be accurate.
          >
          > the phrase is; Love all, trust a few, do harm to
          > none

          unfortunately i can help you with the first words:
          _melo bain_... i don't think the rest words are known

          > I have used the Tengscribe program but am not sure
          > if it translate's
          > into elvish before using the tengwar cursive font.

          no, this program is to transcribe the latin letters
          into tengwar.. it can't do any translations.. and
          however it's better to learn and write with tengwar
          yourself.. programs of this kind are never 100% trustful

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        • xeeniseit
          Is there any place out there in the web where I can get informations about variants between different Westron modes? (I m afraid all the libraries I have
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 7, 2002
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            Is there any place out there in the web where I can get informations
            about variants between different Westron modes? (I'm afraid all the
            libraries I have access to don't possess the books about this.)

            suilaid, xeeniseit
          • Gildor Inglorion
            teithant xeeniseit ... no, there isn t information on any published book i think :) the known information is published in magazines like VT, TT and PE you can
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 7, 2002
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              teithant xeeniseit

              > Is there any place out there in the web where I can
              > get informations
              > about variants between different Westron modes? (I'm
              > afraid all the
              > libraries I have access to don't possess the books
              > about this.)

              no, there isn't information on any published book i
              think :) the known information is published in
              magazines like VT, TT and PE

              you can extrapolate knowledge from the english tengwar
              spelling and the english tengwar version of the King's
              letter (it's a full mode, like the Mode of Beleriand,
              and it's known as the northern variant)

              alo, try to look at my History of Elvish Writing in
              gwaith-i-phethdain (an old version unfortunately) for
              an analysis of them

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            • laurifindil
              ... Do you mean Westron mode_s_ to write Sôval Phâre as seen in the covers of LOTR or in the Book of Mazarbûl or the modes to write English with tengwar?
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 7, 2002
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                --- In elfscript@y..., "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:
                > Is there any place out there in the web where I can get informations
                > about variants between different Westron modes? (I'm afraid all the
                > libraries I have access to don't possess the books about this.)
                >

                Do you mean "Westron mode_s_" to write Sôval Phâre as seen in the
                covers of LOTR or in the Book of Mazarbûl or the modes to write
                English with tengwar?

                If you read French and want a book you can get these modes in my
                recent book :

                "Dictionnaire des langues des Hobbits, des Nains, des Orques"
                see http://www.xs4all.nl/~rossnbrg/worksont.htm
              • xeeniseit
                Is there any attested example of a mode which has the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there isn t,
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 18, 2002
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                  Is there any attested example of a mode which has the vowel
                  tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar AND uses the bar to
                  represent nasals? I suppose there isn't, but I better ask others
                  than supposing anything.
                  suilaid, xeeniseit
                • DDanielA@webtv.net
                  ... Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal bar itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the ómatehtar are placed
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 18, 2002
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                    Teithant xeeniseit:
                    >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
                    >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
                    >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
                    >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
                    >anything.

                    Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal bar
                    itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the
                    ómatehtar are placed on the preceding tengwar and where the bar would
                    probably be used to represent nasalisation. In "Artist and Illustrator"
                    we see Tolkien's tengwar rendering of _Lúthien Tinúviel_ in this
                    mode, and in the 'Sotheby Letter' we see _Imladrist_ (sic) in this mode.
                    In _Tinúviel_ ampa represents 'v' and in _Imladrist_ ando represents
                    'd', so we must assume that nasalised stops are not written with grades
                    2 and 4 as in Quenya. It is logical to assume that the nasal bar would
                    be used as in the other known Sindarin tengwar modes.

                    Cuio mae, Danny.
                  • Erestel
                    ... And what about the quenya sentence Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello [A&I n°189] ? Jérôme
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 19, 2002
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                      > Teithant xeeniseit:
                      > >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
                      > >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
                      > >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
                      > >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
                      > >anything.
                      >


                      And what about the quenya sentence 'Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello'
                      [A&I n°189] ?

                      Jérôme
                    • xeeniseit
                      ... Most probably yes. This means that there can be modes where the tengwa- tehtar order depends on the tehtar you have. If it s a nasal bar, the reading order
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 2, 2002
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                        Danny teithant:

                        > Teithant xeeniseit:
                        > >Is there any attested example of a mode which has
                        > >the vowel tehtar placed on the preceding tengwar
                        > >AND uses the bar to represent nasals? I suppose there
                        > >isn't, but I better ask others than supposing
                        > >anything.
                        >
                        > Actually there might be. There is no attested example of the nasal
                        > bar itself, but there is a poorly attested Sindarin mode where the
                        > ómatehtar are placed on the preceding tengwar and where the bar would
                        > probably be used to represent nasalisation. In "Artist and
                        > Illustrator" we see Tolkien's tengwar rendering of _Lúthien Tinúviel_
                        > in this mode, and in the 'Sotheby Letter' we see _Imladrist_ (sic) in
                        > this mode. In _Tinúviel_ ampa represents 'v' and in _Imladrist_ ando
                        > represents 'd', so we must assume that nasalised stops are not
                        > written with grades 2 and 4 as in Quenya. It is logical to assume
                        > that the nasal bar would be used as in the other known Sindarin
                        > tengwar modes.

                        Most probably yes. This means that there can be modes where the tengwa-
                        tehtar order depends on the tehtar you have. If it's a nasal bar, the
                        reading order is tehta-tengwa, but if it's a vowel techta, the reading
                        order is tengwa-tehta, and if it's even both, the reading order is
                        techta1-tengwa-tehta2 - awfully difficult!

                        Is there no possibility to save Tolkien from being the autor of so much
                        confusion? I see several ways for doing so:


                        1) We can suppose Tolkien'd never have used a nasal bar in a mode which
                        places the vowel techtar on the preceding tengwa. But what about the
                        example Erestel referred?

                        > And what about the quenya sentence 'Menelluin Irildeo Ondolindello'
                        > [A&I n°189] ?

                        I don't know it. But it seems to kill this supposition (if it's a
                        oomatehtar Quenya mode which makes use of the nasal bar).

                        2) All human make errors. Tolkien was a human. --> Attested examples of
                        modes with changing tengwar-tehtar-order are erroneous.

                        3) The nasal bar doesn't come before or after the tengwa it's placed
                        above, but attributes the global property of "nasality" to the
                        consonant represented by that tengwa (analogous to the underbar, which
                        doesn't come after or before the tengwa, but indicates a longer
                        duration of the sound assigned to that tengwa).

                        4) Who said there was any logic or structure or order or similar
                        unnecessary stuff in the tengwar? There's no bad thing about causing
                        confusion.


                        Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
                        constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
                        variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
                        the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.

                        suilaid
                        xeeniseit
                      • laurifindil
                        ... ... Nothing needed be avoided... :-) I suggest we study what Tolkien wrote in tengwar, and he wrote A LOT. ;-)
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 2, 2002
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                          --- In elfscript@y..., "xeeniseit" <xeeniseit@y...> wrote:

                          <snip>
                          >
                          >
                          > Anyway, the oomatechtar modes Tolkien used most of the time have a
                          > constant tengwar-tehtar order. So I suggest we'd claim that modes with
                          > variable tengwar-tehtar order (i.e. a mode with the vowel techtar on
                          > the preceding tengwa AND the nasal bar) should be avoided.


                          Nothing needed be avoided... :-)

                          I suggest we study what Tolkien wrote in tengwar, and he wrote A LOT.
                          ;-)
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