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Mode of Dale

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  • Edward J. Kloczko
    I have been trying to reconstruct the Mode of Dale explicitated in the page nº ii of the Book of Mazarbul. Cf. what C. Tolkien wrote in _Pictures_ : the
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 8, 2001
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      I have been trying to reconstruct the "Mode of Dale" explicitated
      in the page nº ii of the Book of Mazarbul.

      Cf. what C. Tolkien wrote in
      _Pictures_ : "the later or Westron convention, in its northen variety, in the
      application of the Elvish sings to the Common Western Speech."

      I'm quite confident about the primary letters and their values. But much
      lees so regarding the values of the additional letters.

      Any though would be welcome!

      EJK

      P.S. Note that, as Tolkien said in Appendix E, the consonants, ch, j, sh, zh are
      here to be pronounced as in English *not* Elvish ; ch = tsh, j = dz
      (John), etc.
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... I don t see why this mode should make use of ómatehtar, as you suggest at the bottom of the table. I d rather guess and are used for /z/,
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 10, 2001
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        Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
        >
        > I have been trying to reconstruct the "Mode of Dale" explicitated
        > in the page nº ii of the Book of Mazarbul.
        >
        > [...]
        >
        > Any though would be welcome!
        >
        > EJK

        I don't see why this mode should make use of ómatehtar, as you suggest
        at the bottom of the table.

        I'd rather guess <esse> and <e. nq.> are used for /z/, since this is how
        they are used by the proverbial "man of Gondor".

        Rather than a "Mode of Dale", I'd say the mode is what CJRT names it:
        the "Westron convention, in its northen variety". That the mode was
        known far and wide outside of Dale is demonstrated by the fact that the
        same mode, essentially, is used in the King's Letter. The only
        significant difference that I've noted is that <rómen> there represents
        prevocalic /r/ and <úre> represents /w/. Note also <alda> for long /l:/,
        which is found in these two specimen only.

        A better candidate for a "Mode of Dale" I think is represented on the
        jar in the drawing "Conversation with Smaug". This is apparently also a
        variant of the same mode, with the only explicit difference that <úre>
        is used for /o/. It is not surprising that slight differences emerged in
        a mode known all the way from the Shire in the west to Erebor in the
        east.

        Regards,
        Måns

        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
      • Edward J. Kloczko
        ... Your right. I should have deleted all those, except the i and j. My mistake. ... It is not as simple as that. Alda is used for _ll_ (l:) in the Northern
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 11, 2001
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          Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
          >
          > Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
          > >
          > > I have been trying to reconstruct the "Mode of Dale" explicitated
          > > in the page nº ii of the Book of Mazarbul.
          > >
          > > [...]
          > >
          > > Any though would be welcome!
          > >
          > > EJK
          >
          > I don't see why this mode should make use of ómatehtar, as you suggest
          > at the bottom of the table.

          Your right. I should have deleted all those, except the i and j. My mistake.

          > I'd rather guess <esse> and <e. nq.> are used for /z/, since this is how
          > they are used by the proverbial "man of Gondor".

          It is not as simple as that. Alda is used for _ll_ (l:) in the "Northern
          mode", but for hl (lh) in the "mode of Gondor"......

          > Rather than a "Mode of Dale", I'd say the mode is what CJRT names it:
          > the "Westron convention, in its northen variety".

          I thought (wronly, I guess now) that _northen_ meant "Dale", e.g. north of
          Gondor. I associated Dwarves with Dale and Erebor. Now I beleive just
          as you say. C. Tolkien meant _Northen part of the Kingdom_, e.g. Eriador. This would
          explain why Arganron used it in his letter to Sam. It is in that "Northern
          Mode" that the Hobbit wrote their Sôval Phâre.

          <snip>


          > A better candidate for a "Mode of Dale" I think is represented on the
          > jar in the drawing "Conversation with Smaug". This is apparently also a
          > variant of the same mode, with the only explicit difference that <úre>
          > is used for /o/. It is not surprising that slight differences emerged in
          > a mode known all the way from the Shire in the west to Erebor in the
          > east.

          I agree.


          Namárie

          EJK
        • Mans Bjorkman
          ... Perhaps so, perhaps is used for *both* _ll_ and _hl_ in the Westron modes -- about this we can only speculate. However, since Westron evidently
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 11, 2001
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            Edward J. Kloczko wrote:
            >
            > Mans Bjorkman a écrit:
            >
            > [...]
            >
            > > I'd rather guess <esse> and <e. nq.> are used for /z/, since this is how
            > > they are used by the proverbial "man of Gondor".
            >
            > It is not as simple as that. Alda is used for _ll_ (l:) in the "Northern
            > mode", but for hl (lh) in the "mode of Gondor"......

            Perhaps so, perhaps <alda> is used for *both* _ll_ and _hl_ in the
            Westron modes -- about this we can only speculate. However, since
            Westron evidently needed a sign for voiced /z/, and since long /s:/
            could be indicated by other means, I'd say _z_ is still the most likely
            value for <esse>.

            Yrs,
            Måns


            --
            Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
            Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
            SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
            Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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