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Re: anna-yanta, vala-uure

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  • xeeniseit
    ... This criteria is rather poor. You re reducing the difference to a position difference in the syllable. It s as if I d say that the on- glide k sound in
    Message 1 of 33 , Sep 29, 2002
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      Danny teithant:

      > Teithant Alf:
      > >
      > >The sounds of 'w' and 'y' are
      > >always the same; it's only a matter of interpretation
      > >whether you consider them "consonatal" or "second
      > >part of a diphtong".
      > >
      > But they're NOT the same. As the second element of a diphthong, they are
      > semivowels, not consonants. That is why the 'y' in 'boy' is written with
      > a different symbol from the 'y' in 'yet' in IPA transcription.
      > "semivowel: a vowellike sound occurring in consonantal positions in
      > the same syllable with a true vowel, characterized by brief duration and
      > rapid change of duration from one position of articulation to another."
      > (Webster's New World Dictionary)
      > True, the 'y' in 'yet' and the 'w' in 'war' are also semivowels, but
      > they are 'on-glides', ot 'off-glides' and therefore more consonantal, if
      > you will. They are not the same sounds as the 'y' in 'boy' or the 'w' of
      > 'how'.

      This criteria is rather poor. You're reducing the difference to a
      position difference in the syllable. It's as if I'd say that the on-
      glide 'k' sound in _cat_ is not the same as the off-glide 'k' sound in
      _back_. There's no doubt they're not the same, but every reasonable
      person would agree on representing both sounds with one letter, because
      there can be no ambiguity.

      > >I would rather expect to find second parts of
      > >diphtongs represented with tehtar, not with tengwar,
      > >because in these modes any tengwa is "consonantal".
      > >
      > According to whom? Certainly not Tolkien! His tengwar were designed for
      > use with the Eldarin languages, and in attested examples of both Quenya
      > and Sindarin tehta modes he used tengwar, not tehtar, as the second
      > elements of diphthongs.

      In appendix E Tolkien points out that in oomatehtar modes, only the
      consonants are represented by tengwar. (But even if this were my own
      supposition, it could still be useful for research on Tolkien's
      writings.) This includes even Quenya (and any other) semivowel tengwar
      which aren't used but as second parts of diphtongs: yanta and uure.

      But why do attested oomatehtar modes have two different tengwar for the
      semivowels?

      Quenya uses both uure and vilya for the sound of w, both yanta and anna
      (with a dieresis under it) for the sound of (consonantal) y. A possible
      reason for this doubling: to have two tengwar -uure and yanta- that
      don't bear the following vowel tehta as all other tengwar do, but the
      preceding, in order to write diphtongs.

      This means the reason lies in the tengwar-tehtar sequence. If the
      normal tehtar-tengwar sequence doesn't allow the vocalic tehtar part of
      a diphtong to be put upon its consonantal/semivowel tengwar part,
      additional sequence-inverting tengwar are used. Following this
      supposition, I'd expect those modes not to have two different signs for
      semivowels which normally put onto each other the parts of diphtongs,
      e.g. oomatehtar Sindarin.

      Oomatehtar Sindarin (as in the King's Letter) doesn't have twice all
      semivowels. It uses anna in the short diphtongs ending on -y and yanta
      in the long diphtongs ending on what is transcribed as -e. It's
      surprising that initial consonantal 'y' (transcribed as i) isn't
      represented by anna but by yanta, the same sign as in diphtongs ending
      on -e, and not on -y. (This might indicate that the difference between
      the Sindarin diphtongs ae and ai lies more in their duration than in
      the e-i difference.) So concerning the semivowel y, the same sign is
      used in diphtongs and elsewhere.

      But what about the semivowel 'w' in Sindarin? The only attested example
      I know is in the Moria West Gate Inscription: vilya for postvocalic '-
      w' (is this a diphtong?). Do attested Sindarin oomatehtar samples (or
      samples of comparable modes) use more than one tengwa for the semivowel
      w? I'd expect that's not the case, because with the normal Sindarin
      tengwar-tehtar sequence the vocalic parts of diphtongs are always put
      onto their consonantal part. Indeed, this supposition might turn out
      false.

      I'm sorry the post's become so long.

      Suilaid, Alf
    • xeeniseit
      Are there any other persons who have designed their own tengwar mode so that every tengwar bears a tehtar? For esthetical reasons of personal taste, I ve done
      Message 33 of 33 , Oct 19, 2002
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        Are there any other persons who have designed their own tengwar mode so
        that every tengwar bears a tehtar? For esthetical reasons of personal
        taste, I've done so, and I'd like to change out opinions about problems
        coming up with such a mode.
        suilaid, alf
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