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Re : Update, please?

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  • Edouard Kloczko
    ... It is extraordinary (o say the least!) that Mr. Arden Smith who has access to *thousands* of unpublished manuscrits pages by JRR Tolkien dealing with
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
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      --- Dans elfscript@e..., Angasule <angasule@p...> a écrit
      > Michael Everson wrote:
      > >
      > > I found Helge's posting to Arden a bit offensive. Maybe he meant it
      > > tongue-in-cheek, but as someone who volunteers a great deal of his
      > > time doing charity work in the world of scripts and computing, I
      > > don't like to see other experts criticized that way. People have time
      > > to give away or they don't.
      > I understand what you say, but you're missing a big part of the
      > problem, I recommend you read Helge's article on copyright which tells
      > the whole story. You can also check the archives of Elfling and
      > Tolklang, no need to discuss the topic again, I think, unless something
      > changes.
      > Angasule

      It is extraordinary (o say the least!) that Mr. Arden Smith who has
      access to *thousands* of unpublished manuscrits pages by JRR Tolkien
      dealing with tengwar and sarati still "talks" here as if he was
      "blind" having at disposal only the "printed" corpus.

      So who is _offensive_, I wonder?

      EJK
    • Mans Bjorkman
      ... And does anyone believe that this will change by being offensive back? I think most people are aware of this sad issue (if anyone isn t I second the
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
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        Edouard Kloczko wrote:
        >
        > --- Dans elfscript@e..., Angasule <angasule@p...> a écrit
        > > Michael Everson wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I found Helge's posting to Arden a bit offensive. Maybe he meant it
        > > > tongue-in-cheek, but as someone who volunteers a great deal of his
        > > > time doing charity work in the world of scripts and computing, I
        > > > don't like to see other experts criticized that way. People have time
        > > > to give away or they don't.
        > > I understand what you say, but you're missing a big part of the
        > > problem, I recommend you read Helge's article on copyright which tells
        > > the whole story. You can also check the archives of Elfling and
        > > Tolklang, no need to discuss the topic again, I think, unless something
        > > changes.
        > > Angasule
        >
        > It is extraordinary (o say the least!) that Mr. Arden Smith who has
        > access to *thousands* of unpublished manuscrits pages by JRR Tolkien
        > dealing with tengwar and sarati still "talks" here as if he was
        > "blind" having at disposal only the "printed" corpus.
        >
        > So who is _offensive_, I wonder?

        And does anyone believe that this will change by being offensive back?

        I think most people are aware of this sad issue (if anyone isn't I
        second the recommendation to read 'The Question of Copyright' on
        http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf) and what it did to TolkLang. Let's hope
        the same thing won't happen to ElfScript.


        Yours,
        Måns


        --
        Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
        Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
        SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
        Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
      • Michael Everson
        ... There is no link to that article from that page. -- Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach;
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
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          At 18:32 +0100 2001-02-08, Mans Bjorkman wrote:

          >And does anyone believe that this will change by being offensive back?
          >
          >I think most people are aware of this sad issue (if anyone isn't I
          >second the recommendation to read 'The Question of Copyright' on
          >http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf) and what it did to TolkLang. Let's hope
          >the same thing won't happen to ElfScript.

          There is no link to that article from that page.
          --
          Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
          15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
          Mob +353 86 807 9169 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Vox +353 1 478 2597
          27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
        • Angasule
          ... I recall it was removed from there some time ago (that s why I didn t give the link) but I think you can find it floating around in other sites. Angasule
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 8, 2001
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            Michael Everson wrote:
            >
            > At 18:32 +0100 2001-02-08, Mans Bjorkman wrote:
            >
            > >And does anyone believe that this will change by being offensive back?
            > >
            > >I think most people are aware of this sad issue (if anyone isn't I
            > >second the recommendation to read 'The Question of Copyright' on
            > >http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf) and what it did to TolkLang. Let's hope
            > >the same thing won't happen to ElfScript.
            >
            > There is no link to that article from that page.
            I recall it was removed from there some time ago (that's why I didn't
            give the link) but I think you can find it floating around in other
            sites.
            Angasule
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... Very well, but if they don t, it seems to me that they should not be involved in the publication of primary materials in the first place. They should step
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 12, 2001
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              Michael Everson wrote:

              > I found Helge's posting to Arden a bit offensive. Maybe he meant it
              > tongue-in-cheek, but as someone who volunteers a great deal of his
              > time doing charity work in the world of scripts and computing, I
              > don't like to see other experts criticized that way. People have time
              > to give away or they don't.

              Very well, but if they don't, it seems to me that they should not be
              involved in the publication of primary materials in the first place. They
              should step down and turn the work over to people who actually have the
              time to get it done.

              Mr. Smith is of course not obliged to answer my question, and it seems he
              doesn't intend to, but he must be aware that after all this time, his
              flamboyant 1997 assurances about upcoming "large batches" of new info on
              the writing systems begin to look disturbingly like a broken promise.

              The next issue of Parma Eldalamberon (#13) would seem to be of particular
              interest to us: if ever published, it would probably answer many of our
              questions about Ruumilian writing. Elfconner Bill Welden wrote in a
              TolkLang posting of December 18th, 1998: "The next issue of Parma will
              contain materials from the 1920s on Gnomish and Ruumilian." On August 18th,
              1999, Christopher Gilson sent me a letter saying that the Gnomish material
              was nearly ready. Combining these two pieces of information, we *might*
              conclude that when Parma #13 still has not appeared, it is because the
              Ruumilian material remains unfinished. Ruumilian seems to be Smith's
              jurisdiction, so perhaps he can tell us something about why we are still
              waiting for an issue which Gilson originally suggested would be published
              in 1997? (TolkLang posting 20.43, late 1996: "We plan to continue next year
              with material from the 1920's, including fairly comprehensive grammars of
              the two Elvish languages, AS WELL AS THE FIRST WORKING ON THE WRITING
              SYSTEMS." - Emphasis added.)

              In August 1999, I also asked Gilson, "If even a preposition gets out
              without written permission from the Estate, [will you] have broken your
              agreement with them?" (To make the question relevant for this list, read "a
              single character" instead of "a preposition".) Gilson's answer was NO. So
              Smith would hardly be breaking any agreement if he tells us (say) how
              Ruumilian writing expresses labialized consonants, e.g. the _qu_ of Quenya.
              But I guess he is not going to.

              I can well understand why Ed Kloczko finds this whole business rather
              offensive.

              - Helge Fauskanger
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