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Re: Orcish Cirth

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  • Dan Smith
    ... Yes, I ve looked in several places and also can t find any clear statements as to what variation of Cirth runes the Orcs might have used. The three most
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 4, 2001
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      At 08:45 PM 2/2/01 -0800, erilaz@... wrote:
      >Appendix E(II) isn't terribly informative in this regard, where it is
      >stated that "The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in
      >the Second Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and
      >even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according
      >to their skill or lack of it" (III:395, 397).

      Yes, I've looked in several places and also can't find any clear statements
      as to what variation of Cirth runes the Orcs might have used. The three
      most widespread Cirth modes were:
      Angerthas Daeron (Elf runes) S = # 34 [>] & #35 [<]
      "http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/angerthasdaeron.htm"
      Angerthas Moria (Dwarf runes) S = #54 [upside-down Y] or # 34 [>] & #35 [<]
      "http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/angerthasmoria.htm"
      Angerthas Erebor (Dwarf runes) S = # 34 [>] & #35 [<]
      "http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/cirth/angerthaserebor.htm"

      At 08:45 PM 2/2/01 -0800, erilaz@... wrote:
      >As for the runes on the helmets of Saruman's Orcs, I don't think that
      >Orkish usage is especially relevant, since Saruman (and not his minions)
      >would presumably have been behind the creation of his own heraldic device.
      >I personally would opt for an Angerthas Daeron version, either 34 or 35,
      >since Legolas calls the sign on the helmets an "Elf-rune" (II:18).

      I agree. Gimli (a dwarf, probably able to read Angerthas Moria and Erebor)
      says it is "easy to read". And Legolas (an elf, probably able to read
      Angerthas Daeron) describes them as 'Elf-runes". The rune has to be one
      that was commonly accepted a S in both Elvish and Dwarvish usage. That
      narrows it down to #34 or #35. And since both of the _Lord of the Rings_
      Cirth inscriptions (Balin's tomb and the upper title page) use #35 for S,
      My vote is for Cirth #35 [<].

      Here's the passage Arden referred to:
      "... Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in
      the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an
      S-rune, wrought of some white metal.
      'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. 'What do they mean?'
      'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
      'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
      'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,'
      said Aragorn. 'And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of
      Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye.' He stood for a moment in thought.
      'S is for Saruman, I guess,' he said at length. 'There is evil afoot in
      Isengard, and the West is no longer safe.' ..."
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