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Re: [elfscript] Orcish Cirth?

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  • Helge K. Fauskanger
    ... the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you could tell me which number on the table corresponds with the correct rune It would be very helpful. ...
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 2, 2001
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      > >I'm using the Cirth table and wanted to know which S is the correct for
      the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you could tell me which number
      on the table corresponds with the correct rune It would be very helpful.

      Dan Smith answered:

      > Then again, the objects marked with runes may simply have been stolen (or
      captured) from the Dwarves.

      Well...few Dwarves would use helmets with the inscription "S" for Saruman
      (and much less "S" for Sauron...which would actually have to be the rune
      for "Th" anyway, since the name Sauron descends from earlier
      _Thauron_...cf. the final element of the Sindarin form _Gorthaur_).

      It seems that the Orcs did use a variant of the regular runes. "The Cirth
      in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second Age, and
      became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs, all of
      whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or
      lack of it" (Appendix E). I guess the rune that appeared on the helmets of
      the Isengard Orcs was (some variant of?) No. 35 in the Angerthas Table. It
      was one of the original Cirth, and this is also the S-rune used in the
      inscription on Balin's tomb.

      - Helge Fauskanger
    • erilaz@earthlink.net
      ... Appendix E(II) isn t terribly informative in this regard, where it is stated that The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 2, 2001
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        Dan Smith forwarded the following:

        >>I'm using the Cirth table and wanted to know which S is the
        >>correct for the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you
        >>could tell me which number on the table corresponds with the
        >>correct rune It would be very helpful.

        Appendix E(II) isn't terribly informative in this regard, where it is
        stated that "The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in
        the Second Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and
        even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according
        to their skill or lack of it" (III:395, 397). This could mean that they
        used either 34 or 35 for <s>, as in the Angerthas Daeron, or that they
        could have altered the system and used something else, as the Dwarves did
        with the Angerthas Moria. Presumably Azog used the Angerthas Moria when he
        branded his name on Thrór's brow: "in Dwarf-runes so that he could read it"
        (III:354).

        As for the runes on the helmets of Saruman's Orcs, I don't think that
        Orkish usage is especially relevant, since Saruman (and not his minions)
        would presumably have been behind the creation of his own heraldic device.
        I personally would opt for an Angerthas Daeron version, either 34 or 35,
        since Legolas calls the sign on the helmets an "Elf-rune" (II:18).

        ********************************************************************
        Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

        "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
        "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
        "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

        --Lewis Carroll,
        _Through the Looking-glass_
        ********************************************************************
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