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Orcish Cirth?

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  • Dan Smith
    Hi All, This message was recently passed to me, but I wasn t ... I know that there are references to the Orcs having objects marked with some sort of runes,
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 31, 2001
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      Hi All, This message was recently passed to me, but I wasn't
      able to answer his question:

      >I'm using the Cirth table and wanted to know which S is the
      >correct for the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you
      >could tell me which number on the table corresponds with the
      >correct rune It would be very helpful.

      I know that there are references to the Orcs having objects
      marked with some sort of runes, but I don't recall any details
      as to which Cirth mode they may have used. Might they have used
      an Elvish mode (like Angerthas Daeron) since the Orcs are supposed
      to be a corrupted form of the Elves? But the Orcs may also have
      used Angerthas Moria after they over ran Moria. Then again,
      the objects marked with runes may simply have been stolen (or
      captured) from the Dwarves.

      Any ideas?

      --
      Daniel Steven Smith / fontmaster@...
      Fantasy Fonts for Windows / <><
      http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/
    • Helge K. Fauskanger
      ... the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you could tell me which number on the table corresponds with the correct rune It would be very helpful. ...
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 2, 2001
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        > >I'm using the Cirth table and wanted to know which S is the correct for
        the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you could tell me which number
        on the table corresponds with the correct rune It would be very helpful.

        Dan Smith answered:

        > Then again, the objects marked with runes may simply have been stolen (or
        captured) from the Dwarves.

        Well...few Dwarves would use helmets with the inscription "S" for Saruman
        (and much less "S" for Sauron...which would actually have to be the rune
        for "Th" anyway, since the name Sauron descends from earlier
        _Thauron_...cf. the final element of the Sindarin form _Gorthaur_).

        It seems that the Orcs did use a variant of the regular runes. "The Cirth
        in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second Age, and
        became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs, all of
        whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or
        lack of it" (Appendix E). I guess the rune that appeared on the helmets of
        the Isengard Orcs was (some variant of?) No. 35 in the Angerthas Table. It
        was one of the original Cirth, and this is also the S-rune used in the
        inscription on Balin's tomb.

        - Helge Fauskanger
      • erilaz@earthlink.net
        ... Appendix E(II) isn t terribly informative in this regard, where it is stated that The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in the Second
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 2, 2001
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          Dan Smith forwarded the following:

          >>I'm using the Cirth table and wanted to know which S is the
          >>correct for the helmets of the isengard orcs. ... If you
          >>could tell me which number on the table corresponds with the
          >>correct rune It would be very helpful.

          Appendix E(II) isn't terribly informative in this regard, where it is
          stated that "The Cirth in their older and simpler form spread eastward in
          the Second Age, and became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and
          even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according
          to their skill or lack of it" (III:395, 397). This could mean that they
          used either 34 or 35 for <s>, as in the Angerthas Daeron, or that they
          could have altered the system and used something else, as the Dwarves did
          with the Angerthas Moria. Presumably Azog used the Angerthas Moria when he
          branded his name on Thrór's brow: "in Dwarf-runes so that he could read it"
          (III:354).

          As for the runes on the helmets of Saruman's Orcs, I don't think that
          Orkish usage is especially relevant, since Saruman (and not his minions)
          would presumably have been behind the creation of his own heraldic device.
          I personally would opt for an Angerthas Daeron version, either 34 or 35,
          since Legolas calls the sign on the helmets an "Elf-rune" (II:18).

          ********************************************************************
          Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

          "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
          "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
          "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

          --Lewis Carroll,
          _Through the Looking-glass_
          ********************************************************************
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