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Re: [elfscript] the Sarati

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  • Mans Bjorkman
    ... Apart from Lisa Star s adaption, Ryszard Derdzinski uses the Sarati in a Quendya translation of the Valaquenta. It can be seen at
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 26, 2001
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      Ales Bican wrote:
      >
      > Did anyone think about a possible way of aplying the Sarati
      > for Quenya? As far as I am aware we only know the usage
      > of the letters for English.

      Apart from Lisa Star's adaption, Ryszard Derdzinski uses the Sarati in a
      Quendya translation of the Valaquenta. It can be seen at
      <http://www.kki.net.pl/~galadorn/valaqenta.htm>.

      Yours,
      Måns

      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden <http://hem.passagen.se/mansb> An þer."
    • Ales Bican
      ... **Mans Bjorkman draw my attention to Ryscard Derhanski s Sarati text. (Thanks Mans!) He solved this problem having used the sarat /k/ and /u/, which might
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 3, 2001
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        Lisa Star wrote:

        > >Did anyone think about a possible way of applying the Sarati
        > >for Quenya? As far as I am aware we only know the usage
        > >of the letters for English.
        >
        > **I did and it doesn't work very well. You have to use two different letters
        > to spell Q

        **Mans Bjorkman draw my attention to Ryscard Derhanski's
        Sarati text. (Thanks Mans!) He solved this problem having
        used the sarat /k/ and /u/, which might cause some
        confusions: e.g. _cuile_ could be read as _quile_.

        > which is a very common sound in the early Qenya of Tol Eressea
        > (where the sarati would be expected to be known and used).

        **So you used it for Qenya as known from Qenyaqetsa?
        TI:453 says that the Aphabet of Ruumil was still used by
        the Lindar (the Vanyar) in Valinor.

        > It is too wide
        > to fit in a column. There are other problems, but the alphabet is not a
        > good fit to the phonology of the language. Perhaps there is a better way of
        > doing it in the unpublished information--I don't know.

        **It is possible.

        Seems that you and Ryscard actually used the values of the Sarati
        as known from the English way of its usage.

        I was thinking slightly otherwise. We know an English mode
        for the Tengwar and we know an English mode for the Sarati.
        What about combining them?

        We know that the tincoteema is used for Q /t/, /nd/, /th/,
        /nt/ and /n/, and Eng. /t/, /d/, /th/, /th/ (= /dh/) and /n/.
        The dental series is also found in the Sarati. So what about
        using the Sarati for Eng. /t/, /d/, /th/, /dh/, /n/ for Quenya
        /t/, /nd/, /th/, /nt/ /n/?

        Similarly with the parmateema, calmateema and quesseteema.
        Therefore we get a single sarat for /qu/.

        But we will not know a sarat for /ng/ (Ngoldo), because this
        sarat is not known even in English mode (the sarat for Eng. /x/
        or Q /hw/ was guessed).

        We lack Grade 6 for voiceless nasals: used for /r/, /v/, /y/ and
        /w/ in Q.

        Grade 2 in the Quenya mode for the Tengwar is used
        for the combinations /nd/, /mb/, /ng/ and /ngw/;
        Grade 4 for /nt/, /mp/, /nc/ and /nqu/.
        I think once Quenya had sounds /d/, /b/, /g/ and /gw/
        before they were lost or merged with other sounds.
        We know of _Aldudeenie_ for example.
        Grade 4 could have been used for /dh/, /v/, /gh/ and /ghw/
        resp. /w/.

        We also have the additional letters.
        We do not know sarati for /rd/ (resp. /rh/) and /ld/
        (resp. /hl/). Not given.
        Grade 8 might have been used for /s/, /s/ (a variant),
        /z/ and /z/ (a variant).
        Grade 9 for /hy/, /hw/ (?? -- hwesta sindarinwa), /y/ and /w/.

        Slightly weird, I would say...


        Ales Bican

        --
        **Flowers blossom. In the winter time. (Moloko, _The time is now_)
      • Mans Bjorkman
        ... Although it is possible the concept of different modes for different languages was manifest already in the Sarati, I do not think so. Rather, I think
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 4, 2001
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          Ales Bican wrote:
          >
          > Seems that [Lisa] and Ryscard actually used the values of the Sarati
          > as known from the English way of its usage.
          >
          > I was thinking slightly otherwise. We know an English mode
          > for the Tengwar and we know an English mode for the Sarati.
          > What about combining them?
          >
          > [...]

          Although it is possible the concept of different 'modes' for different
          languages was manifest already in the Sarati, I do not think so. Rather,
          I think this was one of the innovations of Feanor; the one which
          prompted the simple, systematic design of his letters, compared to which
          the sarati have an very inconsistent, varied appearance.

          I have a theory which, as long as we have just one sample Sarati
          document, stands on rather shaky grounds -- but I shall venture to voice
          it here. I am under the impression that many, if not all, of the sarati
          are meant to depict the method or means with which each phoneme is
          articulated. For instance, the /m/ shows the two lips pressed against
          each other; the /r/ and /l/ portray the oral cavity, partially blocked
          by the tongue (the inner stroke); the unvoiced /th/ depicts in profile
          the tongue being pressed against the upper row of teeth; and so on. (The
          voiced letters are usually based on the corresponding unvoiced ones,
          with an element doubled.) A present-day parallel would be the Korean
          alphabet, Han'gul, which was designed along the same lines. If this
          theory of mine is correct, then there can of course have been no Sarati
          'modes' the same way there were modes for the Tengwar. But as stated,
          the theory needs a good deal more evidence before we can seriously
          consider it.


          Yours,
          Måns


          --
          Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
          Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
          SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
          Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
        • Abrigon
          I wonder what sort of script would work best for Quenya. Tengwar and what form? Or another script altogether. The question of the Sarati, likely Sarati is not
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 15, 2001
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            I wonder what sort of script would work best for Quenya. Tengwar and
            what form? Or another script altogether.

            The question of the Sarati, likely Sarati is not for Quenya, but for
            the lingo(sp) of the Vala?

            Mike
            Melkor what a wierd being.
          • Måns Björkman
            ... Both the Sarati and the Tengwar were originally designed with Quenya in mind: both were invented by Quenya-speaking Noldor. The Sarati in the form we know
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 16, 2001
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              Abrigon wrote:

              > I wonder what sort of script would work best for Quenya. Tengwar and
              > what form? Or another script altogether.
              >
              > The question of the Sarati, likely Sarati is not for Quenya, but for
              > the lingo(sp) of the Vala?


              Both the Sarati and the Tengwar were originally designed with Quenya in
              mind: both were invented by Quenya-speaking Noldor. The Sarati in the
              form we know it from the "Turin Prose Fragment", however, is used for
              English, and it is quite possible that some other version of the script
              was used for Rúmil's own language.

              The Tengwar, on the other hand, are quite safe to use for Quenya, since
              there are a number of examples -- though one will usually want to use
              one of the specific Quenya modes. A simplified description of such a
              mode can be found at http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_teng_primers.html

              Yrs,

              Måns


              --
              Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
              Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
              SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
              Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
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