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[elfscript] Unicode and Elfscripts

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  • Michael Everson
    ... I think Greg doesn t understand what Unicode is for. Unicode doesn t care how you SPELL things. Unicode specifies unique coded representations for the
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 27, 2000
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      Greg said:

      >My objection is not to the idea of a dictionary, but to the need of UNICODE:
      >part of the beauty of quenya is in coining new words, forgetting them and
      >then coining them in another way next time you need them (obviously this
      >also is confusing to beginners**).

      I think Greg doesn't understand what Unicode is for. Unicode doesn't care
      how you SPELL things. Unicode specifies unique coded representations for
      the individual LETTERS and other marks used to write with. How you string
      them together is your business.

      I am preparing a long post on this topic because I want to use the
      elfscript forum for discussion of the encoding of Tengwar and Cirth.

      I'd like to deal with Cirth first because it's simpler. Any objections?

      Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
      15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
      Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
      27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
    • Michael Everson
      Greetings to elfscript@egroups.com. If you are receiving this and are not a member of that discussion list, see http://www.egroups.com/list/elfscript/info.html
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 27, 2000
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        Greetings to elfscript@egroups.com. If you are receiving this and are not a
        member of that discussion list, see
        http://www.egroups.com/list/elfscript/info.html . Further discussion of
        this topic (standardization in Plane 1 of Tengwar and Cirth) will take
        place there.

        Proposals for encoding Elfscripts in the Universal Character Set have been
        around for some time. I've joined elfscript@egroups.com as it seems a
        useful forum for the ad-hoc discussions.

        Tengwar proposals which have been seen by the standards committee:

        http://www.egt.ie/standards/csur/tengwar.html The first proposal for the
        ConScript Unicode (Private Use Area) Registry.

        http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm The second proposal
        (first proposal to WG2).

        http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf The third proposal
        (follows some corrections by Arden Smith).

        http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-vowels.pdf
        discussion of vowel representation and modes. Inconclusive and under
        revision by me.

        Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:

        1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
        member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
        many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
        proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
        and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
        was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
        figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
        and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

        2. Do not worry about the order of the characters in the table right now.
        Ordering is irrelevant to the UCS character set encoding, and we can settle
        on the aesthetics of the table layout LATER.

        3. Do not worry too much about the character names right now. We do need to
        discuss them and settle on good ones, but they're less important than Rule
        4.

        4. We need to determine whether the character set is complete or not. Are
        there characters missing? Are there characters which are duplicates of each
        other and should be unified? Are there characters which are unified and
        should be differentiated? Do we have citations for EACH character we encode?

        Personally, although I know that Tengwar is everyone's favourite, I would
        like to hold off on it for a little while (I am preparing a big new summary
        paper on it) and instead begin by looking at what I think is in fact a more
        complete proposal, namely, that for the Cirth. See the Cirth proposal at
        http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm

        I've published a revised code table and names list (again due to Arden
        Smith's comments) at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

        For your information, I am contacting the Tolkien Estate to ensure that
        there are no legal impediments to encoding these scripts, and possibly to
        discuss technical issues with Christopher Tolkien in the fullness of time.

        Please let us continue this discussion at elfscript@egroups.com.

        Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
        15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
        Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
        27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
      • Ivan A Derzhanski
        ... [...] ... Missing the modified for _mh_ in the King s Letter (_SD_). There s also an Old English _hw_, which looks like a above and like a
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 28, 2000
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          Michael Everson wrote:
          > Tengwar proposals which have been seen by the standards committee:
          [...]
          > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf
          > The third proposal (follows some corrections by Arden Smith).

          Missing the modified <malta> for _mh_ in the King's Letter (_SD_).
          There's also an Old English _hw_, which looks like a <thúle> above
          and like a <rómen> below, in the same volume of _HoME_.

          > http://www.indigo.ie/egt/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar-vowels.pdf
          > discussion of vowel representation and modes. Inconclusive and under
          > revision by me.

          A few comments on the margins:

          (1) Referring to a the tendency of a language to have vowel-final
          or consonant-final words as its morphological structure is at best
          controversial.

          (2) It is not always true that `<númen> = _nn_ in Sindarin';
          in the King's Letter (in _SD_), the most important published
          document in Sindarin-punctuated mode, the use of <númen> and
          <óre> is very similar (though not identical) to what is seen
          in Quenya. I therefore suggest you replace <óre> with <númen>
          throughout and cut out the parenthetic remark.

          (3) I don't understand all the examples at the end (`Comparison
          of encodings'). _Tolkien_ #3, #4 and #6 seem redundant.
          In _Tolkien_ #7 <hyarmen> should be <yanta>; and shouldn't
          the long carrier be a short one?

          NB extra _s_ in _discusssed_.

          > See the Cirth proposal at
          > http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm

          Er, no, that's about the tengwar too. Wrong document number?

          --
          <fa-al-_haylu wa-al-laylu wa-al-baydA'u ta`rifunI
          wa-as-sayfu wa-ar-rum.hu wa-al-qir.tAsu wa-al-qalamu>
          (Abu t-Tayyib Ahmad Ibn Hussayn al-Mutanabbi)
          Ivan A Derzhanski <http://www.math.bas.bg/~iad/>
          H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria <iad@...>
          W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences
        • Michael Everson
          Correction of address: See the Cirth proposal at http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1642/n1642.htm Also see the revision at
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 28, 2000
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            Correction of address:

            See the Cirth proposal at http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1642/n1642.htm

            Also see the revision at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

            Ivan said:

            >Missing the modified <malta> for _mh_ in the King's Letter (_SD_).

            Looks like an m-s ligature to me.

            >There's also an Old English _hw_, which looks like a <thúle> above
            >and like a <rómen> below, in the same volume of _HoME_.

            Or is this an h-w ligature?

            I think the final -s curls have to be dealt with as ligatures using
            Zero-Width Joiner. But if you could wait for my new document as I asked it
            would help.

            >(1) Referring to a the tendency of a language to have vowel-final
            >or consonant-final words as its morphological structure is at best
            >controversial.

            It's pretty much the explanation for choosing one mode over the other, as I
            understand.

            >(2) It is not always true that `<númen> = _nn_ in Sindarin';
            >in the King's Letter (in _SD_), the most important published
            >document in Sindarin-punctuated mode, the use of <númen> and
            ><óre> is very similar (though not identical) to what is seen
            >in Quenya. I therefore suggest you replace <óre> with <númen>
            >throughout and cut out the parenthetic remark.

            Isn't it better to stick with the canonical description in AppE.

            >(3) I don't understand all the examples at the end (`Comparison
            >of encodings'). _Tolkien_ #3, #4 and #6 seem redundant.
            >In _Tolkien_ #7 <hyarmen> should be <yanta>; and shouldn't
            >the long carrier be a short one?

            It is a draft and would you wait. Thanks. ;-)

            Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
            15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
            Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
            27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
          • Mans Bjorkman
            Greetings Michael and all! ... Actually, the competing proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T. Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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              Greetings Michael and all!


              > Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:
              >
              > 1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
              > member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
              > many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
              > proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
              > and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
              > was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
              > figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
              > and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

              Actually, the "competing" proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T.
              Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of input. As I have
              not studied the principles of Unicode in great detail, I don't feel
              qualified to come up with a proposal of my own, and I shall be more than
              happy to lend my aid to that of Mr. Everson.


              > Personally, although I know that Tengwar is everyone's favourite, I would
              > like to hold off on it for a little while (I am preparing a big new summary
              > paper on it) and instead begin by looking at what I think is in fact a more
              > complete proposal, namely, that for the Cirth. See the Cirth proposal at
              > http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm

              I agree the Cirth proposal seems more complete, and since I doubt I can
              contribute much to it, I will let this matter rest until Michael feels
              the time is ripe for criticism of the Tengwar proposal.


              Yours,
              Måns


              --
              Måns Björkman "Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
              Törnby Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
              SE-179 75 Skå All mimsy were the borogoves,
              Sweden And the mome raths outgrabe."
            • John Cowan
              I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7 in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively. The Unicode Standard says
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7
                in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively.

                The Unicode Standard says (version 3.0, p. 179):

                # The combining diacritical marks in this block [viz. U+0300 to U+036F]
                # are intended for general use with any script. [...] [T]he characters
                # in this block may have multiple semantic values.

                The choice between U+0331 and U+0332 depends on whether length marks
                applying to consecutive runes are merged into a single long line
                or not. If so, U+0332 is appropriate; if not, or if the evidence is
                unclear, U+0331 is appropriate. What if anything is known about this?

                --

                Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
              • John Cowan
                Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan Schliesst euer Aug vor
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                  Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN.

                  --

                  Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                  Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                  Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                  Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
                • Michael Everson
                  ... I knew that.... :-) Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2;
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                    Ar 13:47 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
                    >Also, DORIAN in character names should be DORIATHRIN.

                    I knew that.... :-)

                    Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                    15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                    Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                    27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                  • Michael Everson
                    ... http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don t you? Circumflex, underscore, and dot below? The circumflex mark
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                      Ar 13:44 -0500 2000-03-30, scríobh John Cowan:
                      >I propose unifying away the Cirth combining characters E5, E6, and E7
                      >in favor of U+0302, U+0331 or U+0332, and U+0323 respectively.

                      http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/cirth.pdf

                      Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

                      Circumflex, underscore, and dot below?

                      The circumflex mark is used in Cirth to indicate nasalization.
                      The underscore/macron below is used in Cirth to indicate length.
                      The dot below is used in Cirth to indicate numeric value of a rune.

                      What about the punctuation? Ken Whistler will kill us if we add yet another
                      MIDDLE DOT. Runic has a single and a multiple dot separator, but Cirth
                      definitely has one, two, three, and four dots, and I don't really favour
                      linking Runic and Cirth anyway.

                      >The choice between U+0331 and U+0332 depends on whether length marks
                      >applying to consecutive runes are merged into a single long line
                      >or not. If so, U+0332 is appropriate; if not, or if the evidence is
                      >unclear, U+0331 is appropriate. What if anything is known about this?

                      I can't remember seeing examples of the length mark. Anyone?

                      Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                      15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                      Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                      27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                    • Michael Everson
                      Hei Måns, ... For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                        Hei Måns,

                        >Actually, the "competing" proposal referred to was compiled by Martin T.
                        >Kutschker, though I provided him with a great deal of input. As I have
                        >not studied the principles of Unicode in great detail, I don't feel
                        >qualified to come up with a proposal of my own, and I shall be more than
                        >happy to lend my aid to that of Mr. Everson.

                        For the present you can just look at the Tengwar repertoire and note if you
                        think you find anything missing, but hold off sending it in till you see my
                        amazing contribution.

                        Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                        15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                        Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                        27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                      • John Cowan
                        ... Yes. I was looking at N1642 instead of your most recent version. -- Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 30, 2000
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                          Michael Everson wrote:

                          > Ah. You mean xx6A, xx6B, and xx6C, don't you?

                          Yes. I was looking at N1642 instead of your most recent version.

                          --

                          Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                          Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                          Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                          Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
                        • Michael Everson
                          OK, folks, the draft is available at http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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                            OK, folks, the draft is available at
                            http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf

                            It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

                            Guidelines on how to proceed with discussion:

                            1. Do not post "competing" proposals. I am managing the proposal, and, as a
                            member of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 and am deeply involved in the encoding of
                            many scripts in the Unicode/10646 it is well to leave management of the
                            proposal in my hands. I assure you I will take all comments and criticisms
                            and suggestions into account, but a few years ago Måns Björkman (I think it
                            was Måns) published a separate table and I _still_ haven't completely
                            figured out the delta between his and mine because he moved things around
                            and renamed them as well. Hence Rules 2 and 3.

                            2. Do not worry about the order of the characters in the table right now.
                            Ordering is irrelevant to the UCS character set encoding, and we can settle
                            on the aesthetics of the table layout LATER.

                            3. Do not worry too much about the character names right now. We do need to
                            discuss them and settle on good ones, but they're less important than Rule
                            4.

                            4. We need to determine whether the character set is complete or not. Are
                            there characters missing? Are there characters which are duplicates of each
                            other and should be unified? Are there characters which are unified and
                            should be differentiated? Do we have citations for EACH character we encode?

                            Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                            15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                            Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                            27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                          • Robert Brady
                            ... I m not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that the underlying
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 13, 2000
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                              On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

                              > OK, folks, the draft is available at
                              > http://www.egt.ie/standards/iso10646/pdf/tengwar.pdf
                              >
                              > It is a draft. This will be obvious when you look at it. Comment is invited.

                              I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
                              font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
                              the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
                              to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
                              same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
                              words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

                              This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
                              represent different modes in plaintext.

                              apart from that...

                              xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :

                              "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
                              /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
                              was like an undotted i."


                              xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
                              Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.

                              I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

                              --
                              Robert
                              "Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other
                              nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on
                              indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998.
                            • Michael Everson
                              ... You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E nelde , N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I neltildi and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N SILMARILLION. But Sindarin would be
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                                Ar 20:01 +0100 2000-04-13, scríobh Robert Brady:

                                >I'm not convinced about the idea of modes needing particular
                                >font/rendering logic. Whilst I appreciate that this is done in order that
                                >the underlying spelling is the same, this isn't really a useful property
                                >to have : there are only a few Quenya and Sindarin sounds that share the
                                >same character in their normal modes, and they are different languages, so
                                >words and names will (in the general case) be spelt differently anyway...

                                You would get Quenya regularly represented: N-E-Ld-E 'nelde',
                                N-E-L-T-I-Ld-I 'neltildi' and S-I-L-M-A-R-I-L~-I-X-O-N 'SILMARILLION. But
                                Sindarin would be incorrectly represented: N-L-E-D-E 'neled', NLEThLI
                                'nelthil', and S-L-I-V-R-A-L~-I-X-I-R-O 'SILMARILLION'.

                                >This would complicate writing a renderer, and make it impossible to
                                >represent different modes in plaintext.

                                Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
                                you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
                                get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:

                                Quenya N´LD´ 'nelde', N´LT·Ld· 'neltildi'
                                Sindarin N´L´D 'neled', N´LTh·L 'nelThil'

                                Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
                                to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

                                And the alternative would be expensive inputting software to meet Sindarin
                                or English expectations. This is what you'd have to do to meet the user's
                                "underlying spelling" expectations, which they probably want to use on
                                inputting because it is lots easier.

                                >apart from that...
                                >
                                > xx2D (short carrier) is mentioned in Appendix E :
                                >
                                > "When there was no consonant present in the required position, the
                                > /tehta/ was placed above the 'short carrier', of which a common form
                                > was like an undotted i."

                                Oops, that's an error in the names list. xx2D isn't the short charrier, it
                                is halla. The short carrier is xx2E. So I don't have the attestation for
                                halla yet.

                                > xx70 - xx7D come from a manuscript that I think was published in /Vinyar
                                > Tengwar/. Perhaps someone else knows which issue.
                                >
                                >I see no obvious (or subtle) errors.

                                Apparently it was Quettar 13 and 14, but I do not have these. (I need them.)

                                Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                                15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                                Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                                27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                              • Robert Brady
                                ... Ok. That convinces me. I m just concerned about the complexity, as it is not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so it
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                                  On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Michael Everson wrote:

                                  > Actually not. You just have to have smart fonts to get the ligatures (as
                                  > you do for Arabic and Devanagari) and even if you didn't you would still
                                  > get a legible text (with the tehtar simply showing as nonspacing:
                                  >
                                  > Quenya N�LD� 'nelde', N�LT�Ld� 'neltildi'
                                  > Sindarin N�L�D 'neled', N�LTh�L 'nelThil'
                                  >
                                  > Yes, we'll have to have good fonts, but we would need those ANYWAY in order
                                  > to get the nonspacing tehtar to combine correctly over their consonants.

                                  Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
                                  not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
                                  it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
                                  operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

                                  Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                                  approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                                  --
                                  Robert
                                • Michael Everson
                                  ... It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won t really get encoded until we have in implementation font. I m concerned about whether I got the Old
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                                    Ar 18:56 +0100 2000-04-14, scríobh Robert Brady:

                                    >Ok. That convinces me. I'm just concerned about the complexity, as it is
                                    >not likely software companies will devote any effort to Tengwar support, so
                                    >it should be that adding support is a 'no-brainer'. (Less conventional
                                    >operating systems such as Linux will certainly have support for Tengwar).

                                    It is a complex writing system, and I suspect it won't really get encoded
                                    until we have in implementation font. I'm concerned about whether I got the
                                    Old English vowel encoding right.

                                    >Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                                    >approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                                    While they hiss and spit at Klingon, the feeling does seem to be that
                                    Tengwar and Cirth are legitimate scripts for encoding. (Not that this was a
                                    reason I proposed Klingon along with Tengwar and Cirth, oh my no....)

                                    Michael Everson ** Everson Gunn Teoranta ** http://www.egt.ie
                                    15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland
                                    Vox +353 1 478 2597 ** Fax +353 1 478 2597 ** Mob +353 86 807 9169
                                    27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
                                  • John Cowan
                                    ... They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand. What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal. -- Schlingt dreifach
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 14, 2000
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                                      Robert Brady wrote:

                                      > Have the committes of ISO and Unicode responsible for such matters
                                      > approved, in principle, to the encoding of Tengwar (and Cirth) in the UCS?

                                      They neither approve nor disapprove until a specific proposal is in hand.
                                      What we are doing is refining the draft of such a proposal.

                                      --

                                      Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! || John Cowan <jcowan@...>
                                      Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, || http://www.reutershealth.com
                                      Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau, || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                                      Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)
                                    • Abrigon
                                      http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/ http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 15, 2001
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                                        http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/hindi/alphabet/

                                        http://www.ajeyabharat.com/slogans_hindi.html

                                        For ideas on what it looks like, for possible comparison with
                                        Tengwar..

                                        I do know that many of the lingos of India, and SE and to a degree NE
                                        of India are based on fully or partially on the script that Sanskrit
                                        used.. Some are harder to tell the origin, especially by the time you
                                        get to Java and their script is very curvy.

                                        Mike
                                      • Nicole Mate
                                        Hi, I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jan 13, 2004
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                                          Hi,
                                          I know you all get annoyed by random translation requests, but I need a little help. I have a phrase translated into Sindarian and Quenya and I need each transcribed into Tengwar (and actually, if anyone has time, could you check the translations I have - I am almost positive they're right, but you never know). I have tried in so many different places to transcribe these or download a font, but nothing I am doing seems to work. If any of you can help me, or tell me what I can do to do it myself, I would be incredibly grateful. Thanks! The phrase is �see my pain�, here are the translations I already have.
                                          Quenya - � cen� nwalmenya or c�n� naicenya
                                          Sindarian - ceno naeg n�n. or ceno i naeg n�n.

                                          Once again, Thank you!


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