Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Vinyar Tengwar (was: Re: yeah yeah, another translation request)

Expand Messages
  • Måns Björkman
    ... presentation and ... Erun_), ... So it should be in the mail as I write this. Yours, Måns -- Måns Björkman
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 4 6:28 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Helge K. Fauskanger wrote:
      > ... Apparently we will
      > soon have a Tolkien-made Sindarin word for "your", since Tolkien's partial
      > Sindarin translation of the Lord's Prayer is supposed to be published in
      > the next issue of VT; Tolkien must at least have gotten to "your name" in
      > the second line. (Any updates on the next VT, by the way? I believe it is
      > now more than a month since if was first announced as "upcoming"...)

      On 28 june, Carl Hostetter announced on the Lambengolmor list:


      > I am pleased to announce on behalf of my colleagues and myself the
      > publication of _Vinyar Tengwar_ 44.
      >
      > This 40-page issue features the second part (of two) of a
      presentation and
      > analysis of five hitherto unpublished Quenya texts by J.R.R. Tolkien (see
      > _VT_ 43 for part one), concluding with the _Sub Tuum Praesidium_
      > (_Ortírielyanna_) and the Litany of Loreto. This issue also presents
      > Tolkien's (partial) Sindarin translation of the _Pater Noster_ (_Ae Adar
      > Nín_), edited and analyzed by Bill Welden; and Tolkien's (partial) Quenya
      > translations of the _Gloria in Excelsis Deo_ (_Alcar mi Tarmenel na
      Erun_),
      > edited and analyzed by Arden R. Smith.
      >
      > For more information on _Vinyar Tengwar_, including ordering and
      > subscription information, see:
      >
      > http://www.elvish.org/VT/index.html


      So it should be in the mail as I write this.


      Yours,
      Måns

      --
      Måns Björkman "Mun þu mik!
      Störtloppsvägen 8, III Man þik.
      SE-129 46 Hägersten Un þu mer!
      Sweden http://hem.passagen.se/mansb An þer."
    • Helge K. Fauskanger
      ... publication of _Vinyar Tengwar_ 44. Yes, I got it. And as I half expected, it turns out that Tolkien DID use the word _lín_ for your ! David Salo
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 7 12:46 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Måns Björkman wrote:

        > On 28 june, Carl Hostetter announced on the Lambengolmor list:
        >
        > > I am pleased to announce on behalf of my colleagues and myself the
        publication of _Vinyar Tengwar_ 44.

        Yes, I got it. And as I half expected, it turns out that Tolkien DID use
        the word _lín_ for "your"! David Salo reconstructed that word long ago; it
        even occurs in Movie Sindarin, so millions of witnesses can testify that D.
        Salo is a Competent Guy when it comes to Sindarin. It also demonstrates
        that Tolkien's languages are so symmetrical that intelligent extrapolation
        may well yield the right results.

        - HF
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        On 7/7/02 3:46 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... Big shock there. (Though, to be precise, as I recall you and David both predicted
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 7 3:12 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          On 7/7/02 3:46 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
          wrote:

          > it turns out that Tolkien DID use the word _lín_ for "your"!
          >
          Big shock there. (Though, to be precise, as I recall you and David both
          predicted *_lîn_, not _lín_.)

          > David Salo reconstructed that word long ago; it even occurs in Movie
          > Sindarin, so millions of witnesses can testify that D. Salo is a Competent
          > Guy when it comes to Sindarin.
          >
          Not that that was ever in doubt.

          > It also demonstrates that Tolkien's languages are so symmetrical that
          > intelligent extrapolation may well yield the right results.
          >
          Nor was this ever in doubt. Many other such extrapolations have proven to be
          correct (even those made in the "outdated" _Intro. to Elvish_). And many
          others have not. For example: what does the fact that the root for "name" in
          Sindarin is _not_ *_ess-_ (i.e., parallel with Q. _esse_, or even with S.
          _esta-_), but harkens back to the Gnomish root _en-_, demonstrate? (I'll
          tell you what it demonstrates: Tolkien's first and core conceptions had a
          much longer life in his creative process than is usually recognized or
          allowed. Ignore them at your own peril.)


          |======================================================================|
          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
          | |
          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
          |======================================================================|
        • Helge K. Fauskanger
          ... predicted *_lîn_, not _lín_.) That is just a matter of orthography. According to the rules given in the LotR Appendices, a long vowel in a monosyllable
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 7 3:38 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            I wrote:

            > it turns out that Tolkien DID use the word _lín_ for "your"!

            CFH responded:

            > Big shock there. (Though, to be precise, as I recall you and David both
            predicted *_lîn_, not _lín_.)

            That is just a matter of orthography. According to the rules given in the
            LotR Appendices, a long vowel in a monosyllable is to be marked with a
            circumflex rather than an accent, and that is the spelling David and I use.
            But Tolkien's own spelling often does not follow the "standard" set out in
            the appendices; cf. also the constant C/K variation in the spelling of
            post-LotR samples of Quenya. I think one would have to listen very, very
            carefully to determine whether Viggo Mortensen playing Aragorn says _be
            iest lín_ or _be iest lîn_...

            I believe Tolkien stated that a long vowel in a _fully accented
            monosyllable_ is marked with a circumflex, since such a vowel was
            superlong. If so, _lín_ and *_lîn_ would both be correct, depending on
            whether the possessive pronoun is accented or not: _Eneth lín_ "your name",
            but *_eneth lîn_ "YOUR name" (as opposed to _my_ name, or whatever). But
            apparently there would be no distinction in Tengwar spelling.

            - HF
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            P.S.: On 7/7/02 3:46 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... And others reconstructed the same word long before David did, of course.
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 7 4:08 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              P.S.:

              On 7/7/02 3:46 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
              wrote:

              > it turns out that Tolkien DID use the word _lín_ for "your"! David Salo
              > reconstructed that word long ago;
              >
              And others "reconstructed" the same word long before David did, of course.
              Believe it or not, neither Tolkienian nor Sindarin linguistics began or ends
              with David Salo.


              |======================================================================|
              | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
              | |
              | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
              | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
              | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
              | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
              | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
              |======================================================================|
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.