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Re: [elfscript] And yet another translation request.... RE: question about "y" word-initial

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  • Alf Gandson
    (Answers to the questions about the spelling of your are all spread about this message.) ... does, boat, lie, thieve, loud, ..._? ... doesn t contain a
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 2, 2002
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      (Answers to the questions about the spelling of your
      are all spread about this message.)

      DDanielA@w... teithant:

      > >How to spell _dead, sea, idea, boy, coin, shoe,
      does, boat, lie, thieve, loud, ..._?

      > 'Idea' doesn't really belong in this list; it
      doesn't contain a diphthong. 'e' and 'a' form two
      separate syllables.

      * I've always thought 'idea' would rhyme with 'tear'
      in varieties of English that don't pronounce _r_ after
      vowels, i.e. a diphtong with a glide from /i/ into
      schwa.

      > And I believe that the 'e' in 'shoe' and 'does'
      would be represented by the under-dot. The Title Page
      Inscription contains two diphthongs: 'eu' and 'ee'. In
      both cases they were represented by two short carriers
      bearing the appropriate ómatehtar. Perhaps we should
      consider that the standard.

      * (I think you're rather talking about digraphs than
      diphtongs, but that could be dicsucced.) Yes, perhaps
      we should consider that the standard, but I'll never
      be happy with this solution because I don't like at
      all the short carrier, specially when it's doubled or
      when there's a tehtar under it - as you suggest for
      'shoe, does', right? - That's why I'll always prefer
      more dangerous because less attested modes. It's a
      matter of taste.

      > >But when trying to represent orthography - and
      that's what to my point of view the writer mainly does
      - 'musik' is preferable.

      > You could be right; it's not beyond debate. However,
      you missed a point of phonemic rather than
      orthographic spelling which shows up inthis example.
      JRRT spelt 'is' as 'iz' according to pronunciation.
      Shouldn't we prefer 'z' to 's' in 'music' as well?

      * You're right, I missed that. And with f - v it's
      most probably all the same, even though in the Title
      Page Inscription we only have the abbreviations for
      'of' and 'of the'.

      > > >Tolkien did not distinguish vowel length in the
      Title Page Inscription.
      > >* Modern English doesn't have such a distinction.
      Quenya has, Sindarin has, Finnish has, German has,
      many other languages have, but English doesn't.

      > Certainly it does, at least in terms of phonetics.
      The difference between 'bin' [bin] and 'bean' [bi:n],
      or between 'full' [ful] and [fu:l]. Just because
      spelling doesn't always reflect the distinction
      doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

      * I don't count that as a distinction in length (even
      though there might be one), but after all as a
      distinction in vowel quality: there are two kinds of
      _i_ as well as two kinds of _u_.

      > Rather "The Title Page Inscription Mode as
      interpreted by D. Daniel Andriës, supplemented by
      inferences from other published English tengwar
      documents of J.R.R. Tolkien". Nah ... too long ;)

      * "Danny's very serious and sophisticated Title Page
      Inscription mode interpretation"? ;-))

      > >btw, what's bad about using anna for consonantal y?
      I've always used it according to vala for w.

      > I never implied that it's 'bad', just that it isn't
      the only logical choice. The consonant system of the
      TPI seems to be based pretty closely to the Sindarin
      mode of the King's Letter, version III, which uses
      yanta for consonantal 'y'. Other English tengwar
      examples (though admittedly in full writing modes) use
      the long carrier. Personally, would advocate the use
      of anna, but I realize that we have no confirmation of
      this in Tolkien's examples. My hope is that someday
      more tengwar samples written by Tolkien in a variety
      of languages will enjoy publication.

      * I suppose most of the full writing modes use anna
      for the vowel _o_ even though in teemar and tyeller
      logic it should be consonantal _y_. Yanta is just a
      variant of anna, the long carrier is a variant of the
      common _i_ sign in full writing modes. Do these
      samples really make a difference between short and
      long carrier? I'm really sorry I don't have any access
      to these famous King's Letters.


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