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944Re: [elfscript] úr (e) and yanta (was: Re: úr >> úre )

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  • Arden R. Smith
    Jun 6, 2002
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      Laurifindil wrote:

      >As you probably know, Tolkien changed the meaning of stem *UR- in
      >"Etymologies" from "be hot" and derivative _œr_ "fire" to *UR- "wide,
      >large, great" (p. 396).
      >Is there any chance that ms. might help to date when the stem UR- took
      >up _again_ the meaning "be hot"?

      Not as far as I know. None of the manuscripts that contain lists of
      tengwar names are explicitly dated, and the textual clues in them
      cannot provide more than a very vague dating. It seems to me,
      however, that the use of *UR- with the meaning "wide, large, great"
      was probably no more than a passing fancy.

      >Did the meaning "heat" always applied to the tengwa œr >> œre? Never
      >"large" or "fire"?

      The gloss "fire" appears in the 1930s material. I can find no
      evidence that the tengwa name ever had the meaning "wide, large,

      >Then it is awkward that Tolkien chose that name, beginning with a
      >long-u, instead of a short one _u_, since œr was the _tengwa_ for the
      >sound /u/, not /u:/. Or am I wrong?

      Add an andatehta, and it's also the tengwa for /u:/!

      >So since Tolkien wrote the name yanta starting with the tengwa yanta.

      I should clarify this. I've never seen an actual example of the word
      _yanta_ in tengwar written by Tolkien. I have seen the tengwa
      _yanta_ used to represent word-initial /y/ in Q(u)enya, but only in
      other words, e.g. _Yavanna_. When I said that "the word _yanta_ was
      spelt with the tengwa _yanta_," I meant that that was the only
      possible way to spell the word in that mode at that time, even though
      I had not seen that specific word written out. I apologize for my
      poor choice of words.

      >Did he write the word œre in tengwar as <œr>+<—re>, with a sign under
      ><œr> or <œr><wilya><—re> ?

      This, alas, must remain a mystery. I'm unaware of any example of the
      word _úr(e)_ written by Tolkien in tengwar.

      Arden R. Smith erilaz@...

      "Do you know Languages? What's the French for fiddle-de-dee?"
      "Fiddle-de-dee's not English," Alice replied gravely.
      "Who ever said it was?" said the Red Queen.

      --Lewis Carroll,
      _Through the Looking-glass_
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