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2097Re: hyarmen

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  • xeeniseit
    May 15, 2003
      xeeniseit scripsit:
      > > Then I shouldn't ignore them either. The appendices say something
      interesting on hyarmen: That in the beginning it was a weaker variant
      of harma. How is this to be understood? Does this mean that the
      palatal fricative hy is to be considered a variant of the velar one?
      Etymologically? I can't judge on that, as I don't know about Quenya
      etymology. Phonetically? This would seem strange to me, but maybe
      possible, but I'd like to have more evidence on it.

      John Cowan responsit:
      > Consider the alternation in German and other languages between [x]
      and [C], the velar and palatal fricatives. Near front vowels, as
      in "ich", one gets the palatal fricative; near back vowels, as
      in "ach", one gets the velar fricative.

      Well known to me. And 3rd Age Quenya shows the same alternation with
      original ch between vowel and t (tehtar as "te-hy-tar", ohtar as "o-
      ch-tar"). But even though in that way, an original ch has become hy,
      there's also an original hy which -as far as I can see- has nothing
      to do with original ch. At least, both sounds occur in the same
      surroundings (e.g. at the beginning of a word before a: hyarmen,
      charma). But it depends (almost) entirely on the context whether you
      have German /x/ or /C/, and the same happens with Quenya vowel `+ ht:
      it depends on the preceding vowel.

      Danny teithant:
      > In origin, hyarmen represented [hj].

      This makes things even trickier! Even though I believe that by means
      of coarticulation, of connected speech (nobody pronounces isolate
      sounds), there's only a very short way from [hj] to [C]. But I have
      no idea how I can put together the ideas of hyarmen originally
      representing [hj] and being derived from charma as a weaker variant.

      But suppose that hyarmen originally represented /h/: Then its being a
      weaker variant of /ch/ wouldn't be problematic any longer. - But then
      there'd be a mess with the word 'original'. What is the most original
      tengwar mode? In internal history it must be Feanors mode, but we
      don't know it; in external history I suspect it's the English mode.
      And the h-ch stuff in an English mode makes more sense to me than the
      hy-ch stuff of Quenya!???

      Why is there more logic in the English mode than in the Quenya mode
      or in the mode of Beleriand?

      suilaid
      alf
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