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I have been banned on Elfling.

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  • Patrick H. Wynne
    I see this morning that I have been banned from Elfling, presumably by that paragon of restraint and fairness, David Salo. No prior warning given to me, no
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 25, 2003
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      I see this morning that I have been banned from Elfling, presumably by that paragon
      of restraint and fairness, David Salo. No prior warning given to me, no reasons
      provided, no announcement to the list. I am just to be swept under the rug,
      apparently, and hopefully nobody will notice.

      Well merry Christmas to you too, David. Once again you've demonstrated your fervent
      advocacy of academic and intellectual freedom and freedom of speech in Tolkien
      linguistics.

      If the other moderators of Elfling have a shred of integrity left, they will resign
      immediately.

      -- Patrick H. Wynne
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      David Salo, Dorothea Salo, and Lisa Star have all made a career out of portraying themselves as fierce proponents of free speech and warriors against all who
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 25, 2003
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        David Salo, Dorothea Salo, and Lisa Star have all made a career out of
        portraying themselves as fierce proponents of free speech and warriors
        against all who would silence debate, and of accusing myself and my
        colleagues of silencing others.

        People silenced by David, Dorothea, and Lisa (that we know of): 2

        People silenced by Carl, Pat, etc.: 0

        Just so we know where we stand on the count, and on the whole "truth"
        thing that David finds so inconvenient....


        --
        =============================================
        Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

        ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
        Ars longa, vita brevis.
        The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
        "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
        a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
      • Didier
        ... Since the purpose of this list is to publicly discuss the moderation of ELFLING, including the policies and practices of its manager/moderator , will the
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 25, 2003
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          Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
          > No prior warning given to me, no reasons provided, no announcement
          > to the list. I am just to be swept under the rug, apparently, and
          > hopefully nobody will notice.

          Since the purpose of this list is to publicly discuss the moderation
          of ELFLING, "including the policies and practices of its
          manager/moderator", will the moderator(s) explain here their apparent
          decision to ban Patrick from ELFLING, for the sake of transparency
          regarding such decisions? From what we have seen on ELFLING itself, I
          don't see any reason that could have justified this decision, and I
          feel at lost understanding it. True, there was an argument between
          Patrick and Fauskanger, but this is not the first time such
          controverse occur between members, and there was nothing unacceptable
          in the relevant messages (to no extent was there any flames or
          unacceptable speech)... I have appreciated Patrick's intervention on
          ELFLING in the past, and I do hope that the things will get
          clarified, including all issues that come along: if a ban is indeed
          active, is it a temporary ban? How long will last the bans currently
          active? Who, beside Patrick and Carl, is currently banned from
          posting? Such things used to be explained in the past, and I feel
          mitigated to hear that no explanation was provided and that a ban was
          just applied without warning. This is not an encouraging thing to see
          that on ELFLING.

          Didier.
          P.S. Merry Christmas... ^^
        • Didier
          ... For the record, since the above is a nominative list and therefore extends beyond ELFLING, you can increase the count to 3. More than one year ago, I
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 26, 2003
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            > People silenced by David, Dorothea, and Lisa (that we know of): 2

            For the record, since the above is a nominative list and therefore
            extends beyond ELFLING, you can increase the count to 3. More than
            one year ago, I realised I was no longer subscribing to
            ElvishLinguistics, Lisa Star's list. Having just switched to a new
            computer with difficulties to get my former e-mail still working, I
            thought it was a mistake and tried to register again, but I was
            rejected, without explanation but just a standard, automated and
            impersonal, message from the moderator. There was no answer, either,
            to my private request for information to the moderator. Of course,
            registering with an "alternate" identity worked, so there is little
            doubt about the issue... I don't take offense at it, just noting that
            ElvishLinguistics is not a "free" list (despite the claimed
            policy "The list is moderated to remove netkooks and spammers.
            Transgressors will be banned"). But I do hope that ELFLING will not
            show the same lack of transparency in its moderation policy.

            In elfing-d #47, Elimloth made a point about the moderation at work
            at that time, and I hope the current moderators have the freedom to
            do the same again.

            In elfling #27901, Lukas Novak is cross-posting a message from a
            banned member, which is the reason why Patrick was apparently banned.
            Hmmm... Hmmm... This is getting stupid, as it sounds.

            Didier.
          • Patrick H. Wynne
            ... Very interesting -- and welcome to the club! I tried to join Lisa Star s list a long time ago, and was also rejected. No big surprise there, really. So I
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 26, 2003
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              On Dec 26, 2003, at 5:56 AM, Didier wrote:

              >>People silenced by David, Dorothea, and Lisa (that we know
              >>of): 2
              >
              >For the record, since the above is a nominative list and therefore
              >extends beyond ELFLING, you can increase the count to 3. More than
              >one year ago, I realised I was no longer subscribing to
              >ElvishLinguistics, Lisa Star's list. Having just switched to a new
              >computer with difficulties to get my former e-mail still working, I
              >thought it was a mistake and tried to register again, but I was
              >rejected, without explanation but just a standard, automated and
              >impersonal, message from the moderator. There was no answer, either,
              >to my private request for information to the moderator.

              Very interesting -- and welcome to the club! I tried to join Lisa
              Star's list a long time ago, and was also rejected. No big surprise
              there, really. So I now have the honor of having been silenced in
              two online forums by both David Salo and Lisa Star.

              It should also be noted that Lisa Star practices a similarly
              restrictive policy with her print journal "Tyalie Tyelelliéva".
              I tried to subscribe a year or two ago and was curtly refused
              (with a personal insult thrown in for good measure) by the
              Editrix herself. And yet Lisa still hypocritically claims on
              her website that "we are happy to make arrangements to
              provide the journal to anyone who is interested." This is a lie,
              plain and simple.

              It bears repeating that subscribership to Carl's journal "VT" is
              _truly_ open to anyone who is interested -- Helge Fauskanger
              numbers among Carl's subscribers. Similarly, no one is ever
              refused the right to purchase a copy of "Parma Eldalamberon"
              (as long as a particular issue is still in print, of course), and
              membership to the Lambengolmor discussion group is
              open to everyone as well.

              >... I don't take offense at it, just noting that
              >ElvishLinguistics is not a "free" list (despite the claimed
              >policy "The list is moderated to remove netkooks and spammers.
              >Transgressors will be banned"). But I do hope that ELFLING will not
              >show the same lack of transparency in its moderation policy.

              They already have, as my recent banning without warning, explanation,
              or announcement demonstrates. And despite the fact that "Open
              membership" is listed among the Group Settings on the Elfling home
              page, the membership criteria for Elfling are in reality the same as
              they are for Star's list: only those against whom the list owner does
              not bear a personal grudge may join.

              -- Patrick H. Wynne
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