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A matter of perspective

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  • varavilindo
    A matter of perspective Since Helge is apparently afraid of presenting his thoughts and standpoints on this list, he rather chooses to attack me via e-mail.
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 26, 2009
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      A matter of perspective

      Since Helge is apparently afraid of presenting his thoughts and standpoints on this list, he rather chooses to attack me via e-mail.


      Some quotations/thoughts from it (Flames exluded):




      >> While it remains clear that scholarly discussion of Tolkienian words is definitely within fair use, one has to wonder if publishing the entire set of every Quenya-Word ever published* in the Internet can be considered fair use.<<

      >"Fair use" is completely irrelevant. It applies to something that is really copyrighted, but "fair use" is then to be considered a sort of legal infringement on that right. But WORDS as such (as opposed to texts) cannot be copyrighted. Some words now in common use, such as "robot", were first used in a context of fiction. Do you think the Estate of the author in question can stop anybody from using the word "robot", or even listing and defining it in a dictionary, by claiming some kind of exclusive rights to it?<






      "Robot" is a word that entered general linguistic usage. Germans call that "in den Allgemeinen Sprachgebrauch eingehen". It's true, such words cannot be "copyrighted". But let's name another more fitting example: I construct a new car (germans love to construct cars) and I get the glorious idea to name it "Aragorn". I bet this would get me in some trouble.







      >The closest thing we have to a relevant legal dispute, the Loglan case, would indicate that languages cannot be copyrighted. So as regards your own non-masterpiece, please keep its grammar and vocabulary STRICTLY SECRET, if you are troubled by the idea of others describing or even using your language.<






      I don't have many sources on Loglan but I read on the internet some interesting informations on that matter; i'd like to share this here (Source: wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban)):

      "Lojban has a predecessor, Loglan, a language invented by James Cooke Brown in 1955 and developed by The Loglan Institute. Loglan was originally conceived as a means to examine the influence of language on the speaker's thought (an assumption known as the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis).

      "As Brown started to claim copyright[citation needed] on the language's components, restraint was laid on the community's activity. In order to circumvent such control, a group of people decided to initiate a separate project, departing from the lexical basis of Loglan and reinventing the whole vocabulary, which led to the current lexicon of Lojban. In effect they established in 1987 The Logical Language Group, based in Washington DC. They also won a trial over whether they could call their version of the language "Loglan".[2]"

      Helge, you chose a very bad example. The "group of people" had to reinvent the whole vocabulary before they could savely publish their version of the language. As we all now, a language without vocabulary is no language. So if I reconstruct the whole vocabulary of Quenya, erasing all former roots, making new roots, inventing new words, imitating the flavour of Quenya, I could generate my own version of Quenya.







      >> it has to remain clear that Helge is not the holder of the copyright. The Tolkien-Estate is the holder of the copyright, and Helge can be very happy that they never attempted to attack him for the deliberate copyright infringements he commited (Pater noster anyone?). Actually, Helge can be grateful that they never thought of suing him and closing his webpage; sadly Helge doesn't recognize this.<<


      >In the decade-old case you refer to, I read up on the relevant laws, sought professional legal advice and proceeded on the advice of my lawyer. The Estate did nothing when I finally did publish my work. (Then I had spent more than a YEAR trying to work out some kind of deal with them, but receiving nothing but completely negative responses no matter how generous I tried to be -- I would have been willing to publish my work in any journal of their choosing, including those of Wynne or Hostetter, with absolutely no compensation). So, "Varavilindo", who are you to say that I have broken any laws, or even acted immorally?<






      Well,Helge, allow me to quote you: "But WORDS as such (as opposed to texts) cannot be copyrighted" (see above). Well as far as I see it the Átaremma (Pater Noster) is a whole text composed in Quenya. So even from ur perspective the Átaremma is still under Copyright. And as far as I recall the whole story (Source: Elfling + Elfling-d, Comments by Carl Hostetter) it was you who threatened (even with a lawyer) the Estate and Christopher Tolkien to publish it first, without admition of the Estate and Christopher Tolkien. Let me ask you a simple question: What were you thinking? Why is it so hard to accept that the Estate and Christopher Tolkien can choose - as the Copyright Holder of the Átaremma-Text - what to do with THEIR intellectual property? This isn't the work of an ancient greek linguist long dead.

      Let's make another (hypothetic) example: I send u a random 5 sentence long text written in my language for you to read it. You like it, and since you are so in love with this masterpiece you want to analyse it and publish it. But I say NO because I don't want it published. Would you dare to publish it nonetheless? It's my work so I can decide whether it will be published or not. Ask your lawyer if that's an incorrect statement. So here comes the news-flash: J.R.R. Tolkien DID want his linguistic work published in a ordered and sophisticated manner as his son Christopher would see fit. You don't agree with that? Fine, make your own language and do it as you see fit.







      >> *Well, not all Q(u)enya-Words since Helge obviously doesn't "like" the earlier evolutionary steps of Tolkien's languages<<


      >On my site you can find a long, detailed analysis of "Ilkorin" -- down to a comprehensive discussion of every single Ilkorin word in the Etymologies -- though Ilkorin was later revised out of existence and has no place whatever in the "classical" scenario presupposed in the Lord of the Rings. As for "Qenya", I worked out complete two-way indexes to the Qenya Lexicon of 1915 and published them on my site.<







      The fact remains that you often refer to later Quenya (from the 60-70s) as the "mature" version (Source: Your Quenya Course and numerous posts on elfling). I also have your review of PE#15 in mind (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/30418): I won't pick specific quotes from it. I beg the reader to read the whole review, one can easily get the impression that Mr. Fauskanger thinks that Early Qenya isn't "usefull" and a "waste of time". I have to admit though that my remark was unnecessary.

      It's very clear to me that it was the right decision to NOT post my thought's on elfling. It would have gotten censored right away.

      I want to indicate that Carl Hostetter has pointed out in detail the copyright issues on elvish.org as well on this list. So anyone interested in that matter can find the answers on elfling-d.


      Regards

      Philipp

      P.S.: I encourage Helge to join this list and discuss the matter here, so he can defend himself properly.
    • pengolodh_dk
      Hi Philipp, I hope Helge s patronizing, threatening, and insulting mail won t keep you from posting here or on Elfling. You are needed. Claiming in public that
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 8, 2009
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        Hi Philipp,

        I hope Helge's patronizing, threatening, and insulting mail won't keep you from posting here or on Elfling. You are needed.

        Claiming in public that someone has broken a law can be unlawful in itself. Therefore it is a good idea to rephrase such a statement, or putting an 'I believe...' or 'It looks like to me that...' in front of it.

        Don't let Helge's threats keep you from posting on these issues, just be careful with claiming somebody committed a crime.

        Regarding Elfling, you propably very well know that people who a chummy with the list owner have all the space they want for insults, and the rest of us can't say 'boh' without it being a 'flame'.

        I once had a private email correspondance with David Salo about it, and he made Saruman seem like a rhetorical freshman. Discussing these matters with Helge, David, or Lisa Star, is best described in Tolkien's chapter "The Voice of Saruman". In that chapter might also be clues as to what is the best strategy to counter their absurdities.

        All the best,
        Peter
      • Philipp
        Hi Peter, I originally planned on replying to Helge s latest outburst in detail but now I feel it s unnecessary and another waste of time, since his attacks
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 15, 2009
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          Hi Peter,

          I originally planned on replying to Helge's latest outburst in detail but now I feel it's unnecessary and another waste of time, since his attacks are open to the public now and everybody can see Helges own perspective as well as mine. It's easier now for anyone to make up their own mind on that matter.

          As soon as I read his post I realized that this is another epic impertinent Helge post.

          The impression I have from Helge's post is that he is certainly a very bitter man who enjoys flaming. Though the publishing speed is of no matter in this discussion, Helge does not fail to mention it again: Just look at this sentence: "If we had been able to exert a little healthy pressure on the Estate and/or the Team more often, it may be suspected the "official" publication process would progress rather more speedily, unlike the current situation when not a single iota of new material has appeared for 2.5 years". Who is Helge to demand a higher pace? Doesn't he understand that his behaviour concerning the whole _Àtaremma_ affair (as Helge described it his last post) is the exact reason why no one will be handed a piece of unpublished material again?

          Did you notice how Helge ignored (in his reply) my Loglan-argument? Quenya (for example) has a lexical basis in Tolkiens works. That base is copyrighted. That's the reason why the Loglan group had to create their own vocabulary. And if you take that whole lexical basis and post it on your website (this is what Helge did with the Quenya Lexicon; commented or not- it doesn't matter) without asking the copyright holder (the Tolkien Estate) - I am pretty sure (!) - you are indeed commiting a copyright infringement in my point of view. Just look at "A copyright Case to watch" (elfling-d 680 and 706) which is in my opinion a nice comparable example. Though there is a difference: Helge is offering his Quenya-lexicon for free. This doesn't change the fact that copyright is possibly violated.

          I am of course NOT interested in "suing" anybody. No one talks about taking legal action, and Helge's threats against me, even demanding my full name, are absurd.

          I want to rephrase one sentence in my original post (elfling-d: 715):

          "The Tolkien-Estate is the holder of the copyright, and Helge can be very happy that they never attempted to attack him for the copyright infringements he [would have possibly commited if he would have published the _Átaremma_ - first - without permission of the Tolkien Estate (the copyright holder); I think he still has probably commited a copyright infringement by presenting the entire Quenya Corpus on his website]."

          In my opinion even Saruman is way more smarter than Salo and Helge combined. The best thing one can do about them is to just ignore them.

          Regards,

          Philipp


          --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_dk" <pedelberg@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Philipp,
          >
          > I hope Helge's patronizing, threatening, and insulting mail won't keep you from posting here or on Elfling. You are needed.
          >
          > Claiming in public that someone has broken a law can be unlawful in itself. Therefore it is a good idea to rephrase such a statement, or putting an 'I believe...' or 'It looks like to me that...' in front of it.
          >
          > Don't let Helge's threats keep you from posting on these issues, just be careful with claiming somebody committed a crime.
          >
          > Regarding Elfling, you propably very well know that people who a chummy with the list owner have all the space they want for insults, and the rest of us can't say 'boh' without it being a 'flame'.
          >
          > I once had a private email correspondance with David Salo about it, and he made Saruman seem like a rhetorical freshman. Discussing these matters with Helge, David, or Lisa Star, is best described in Tolkien's chapter "The Voice of Saruman". In that chapter might also be clues as to what is the best strategy to counter their absurdities.
          >
          > All the best,
          > Peter
          >
        • calwen76
          You know, sometimes it seems to me that Helge Fauskanger, David Salo and their justlikers live in another world that has kind of different rules. It is most
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 26, 2009
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            You know, sometimes it seems to me that Helge Fauskanger, David Salo and their justlikers live in another world that has kind of different rules. It is most unfortunate that their world interlaps in a way with the world that we - if I may call us so - 'clearminded' live in. The trouble is how easily 'innocent' souls get fooled and tangled into their _unlimited_ behavior... I am glad there are still reasonable people out there.

            Happy New Year to all of you, Galrim!
            Lucy

            --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "Philipp" <varavilindo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Peter,
            >
            > I originally planned on replying to Helge's latest outburst in detail but now I feel it's unnecessary and another waste of time, since his attacks are open to the public now and everybody can see Helges own perspective as well as mine. It's easier now for anyone to make up their own mind on that matter.
            >
            > As soon as I read his post I realized that this is another epic impertinent Helge post.
            >
            > The impression I have from Helge's post is that he is certainly a very bitter man who enjoys flaming. Though the publishing speed is of no matter in this discussion, Helge does not fail to mention it again: Just look at this sentence: "If we had been able to exert a little healthy pressure on the Estate and/or the Team more often, it may be suspected the "official" publication process would progress rather more speedily, unlike the current situation when not a single iota of new material has appeared for 2.5 years". Who is Helge to demand a higher pace? Doesn't he understand that his behaviour concerning the whole _Àtaremma_ affair (as Helge described it his last post) is the exact reason why no one will be handed a piece of unpublished material again?
            >
            > Did you notice how Helge ignored (in his reply) my Loglan-argument? Quenya (for example) has a lexical basis in Tolkiens works. That base is copyrighted. That's the reason why the Loglan group had to create their own vocabulary. And if you take that whole lexical basis and post it on your website (this is what Helge did with the Quenya Lexicon; commented or not- it doesn't matter) without asking the copyright holder (the Tolkien Estate) - I am pretty sure (!) - you are indeed commiting a copyright infringement in my point of view. Just look at "A copyright Case to watch" (elfling-d 680 and 706) which is in my opinion a nice comparable example. Though there is a difference: Helge is offering his Quenya-lexicon for free. This doesn't change the fact that copyright is possibly violated.
            >
            > I am of course NOT interested in "suing" anybody. No one talks about taking legal action, and Helge's threats against me, even demanding my full name, are absurd.
            >
            > I want to rephrase one sentence in my original post (elfling-d: 715):
            >
            > "The Tolkien-Estate is the holder of the copyright, and Helge can be very happy that they never attempted to attack him for the copyright infringements he [would have possibly commited if he would have published the _Átaremma_ - first - without permission of the Tolkien Estate (the copyright holder); I think he still has probably commited a copyright infringement by presenting the entire Quenya Corpus on his website]."
            >
            > In my opinion even Saruman is way more smarter than Salo and Helge combined. The best thing one can do about them is to just ignore them.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Philipp
            >
            >
            > --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_dk" <pedelberg@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Philipp,
            > >
            > > I hope Helge's patronizing, threatening, and insulting mail won't keep you from posting here or on Elfling. You are needed.
            > >
            > > Claiming in public that someone has broken a law can be unlawful in itself. Therefore it is a good idea to rephrase such a statement, or putting an 'I believe...' or 'It looks like to me that...' in front of it.
            > >
            > > Don't let Helge's threats keep you from posting on these issues, just be careful with claiming somebody committed a crime.
            > >
            > > Regarding Elfling, you propably very well know that people who a chummy with the list owner have all the space they want for insults, and the rest of us can't say 'boh' without it being a 'flame'.
            > >
            > > I once had a private email correspondance with David Salo about it, and he made Saruman seem like a rhetorical freshman. Discussing these matters with Helge, David, or Lisa Star, is best described in Tolkien's chapter "The Voice of Saruman". In that chapter might also be clues as to what is the best strategy to counter their absurdities.
            > >
            > > All the best,
            > > Peter
            > >
            >
          • Helge K. Fauskanger
            ... and their justlikers live in another world that has kind of different rules. It is most unfortunate that their world interlaps in a way with the world that
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 2, 2010
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              Lucy wrote:

              > You know, sometimes it seems to me that Helge Fauskanger, David Salo
              and their justlikers live in another world that has kind of different
              rules. It is most unfortunate that their world interlaps in a way with
              the world that we - if I may call us so - 'clearminded' live in.

              And a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you as well, Lucy! I trust you and the other
              Clear-Minded People will treasure every single day of 2010, always
              remembering that you enjoy the privilege of a higher, sublime level of
              consciousness that must be altogether unimaginable to David, me and our
              "justlikes"!

              > The trouble is how easily 'innocent' souls get fooled and tangled
              into their _unlimited_ behavior...

              Ah, yes -- "evil is fissiparous" (Morgoth's Ring, p. 405).

              Frankly I though the entertainment value of Elfling-d was all but gone
              after its founder stopped producing his amusing posts, but now there are
              interesting signs of some kind of revival! Keep 'em coming, folks, they
              are much appreciated!

              Yours,
              HKF (still chuckling...)
            • calwen76
              ... And where exactly have I writen that the world I live in is higher and sublime , Helge? I ve only said it s _different_. It is no synonym to either of
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 7, 2010
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                --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

                > And a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you as well, Lucy! I trust you and the
                > other Clear-Minded People will treasure every single day of 2010,
                > always remembering that you enjoy the privilege of a higher,
                > sublime level of consciousness that must be altogether unimaginable > to David, me and our "justlikes"!

                And where exactly have I writen that the world I live in is "higher and sublime", Helge? I've only said it's _different_. It is no synonym to either of your words. And, you have never tended to derogate yourself, it is a new quality of yours?
                Though I must admit you got it explicitly right, feeling my world unimaginable. Bright boy...


                > Ah, yes -- "evil is fissiparous" (Morgoth's Ring, p. 405).

                You know best.

                > Frankly I though the entertainment value of Elfling-d was all but
                > gone after its founder stopped producing his amusing posts, but now > there are interesting signs of some kind of revival! Keep 'em
                > coming, folks, they are much appreciated!

                Glad I amused you...

                > HKF (still chuckling...)

                Mind you don't choke. I would miss the kilometres of your posts...

                Lucy
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