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Further Documentation Indeed

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  • Peter
    The below post was sent to the Elfling list as a response to Helge s latest attack on Carl. We all know that Carl can fend for himself, but the double
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 16, 2008
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      The below post was sent to the Elfling list as a response to Helge's
      latest attack on Carl. We all know that Carl can fend for himself, but
      the double standards on Elfling just need to be pointed out to
      everyone on the list and not just the people who check Elfling-d as
      well. Unfortunately, my post was banned, since a) I wrote that Helge
      assumed 'bad faith', b) I quoted a banned person (Carl I suppose, even
      though there is no quote, but only references, and last but not least
      c) the last paragraph encourages the discussion of the philosophy of
      language, which is off-topic on Elfling. One is left gaping in quiet
      astonishment as to how Helge's post could be construed in a way that
      does not violate all of the above. But judge for yourselves.

      much too hasty (who was it that used to use that line...I just love it),
      Peter

      ***

      Helge is intent on "documenting" that Carl F. Hostetter and Patrick
      Wynne finds writing in Neo-Elvish plain wrong. To prove that Helge
      takes a few one-liners out of several un-connected posts to mailing
      lists and put them together in a mish-mish and adds a good deal of bad
      faith.

      I am left wondering why:

      1) Both Carl and Patrick again and again have assured that they are
      NOT against Neo-Elvish compositions as long as the composers are
      honest about their work. (I have quoted Patrick at length in my former
      post, and Carl has just assured us on Elfling-d that is still isn't
      against Neo-Elvish compositions... why would he be?)

      2) Carl has given advice on how to IMPROVE Neo-Elvish compositions in
      his essay "Elvish as She Is Spoke"
      (http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf)

      3) Both Carl and Patrick has composed in Neo-Elvish in Vinyar Tengwar
      and even exhibits one of these poems on the E.L.F. website.
      (http://www.elvish.org/articles/Attolma.html)

      Of course Helge can claim that they are lying, but why lie? Is there a
      great masterplan to eradicate Neo-Elvish compositions from the face of
      this Middle-earth that demands complete secrecy while the Neo-Elvish
      arbiters are weeded out? I don't think so. Maybe the simple fact is:
      Nobody is against Neo-Elvish compositions.

      But of course this keeps us from discussing the much more important
      issues of the *status* and *quality* of Neo-Elvish.

      much too hasty,
      Peter
    • Bill Welden
      ... I was actually *removed* from the subscription list for wandering too far into issues of philosophy, even though philosophy is pretty much all I have ever
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 16, 2008
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        Peter wrote:

        > One is left gaping in quiet astonishment ...

        I was actually *removed* from the subscription list for wandering too
        far into issues of philosophy, even though philosophy is pretty much
        all I have ever posted about (offending *attempted* post appended
        below for reference (and possibly edification)).

        The irony is that only in philosophy will we find the tools to resolve
        these (wholly illusory) conflicts of perspective.

        The greater irony is that Elfling was originally founded to provide an
        outlet for people who felt that Julian, in his attempt to keep the
        discourse civil on Tolklang, wasn't giving them a fair opportunity to
        be heard.

        --Bill

        ==snip==

        > To my mind, denying Quenya ambiguity denies it a bit of its
        > beauty.

        > If there is something about Tolkien's languages that has
        > drawn us together, we will find it in Tolkien's perspective,
        > by reading what Tolkien wrote. If what Tolkien wrote seems
        > strange, that only means that we haven't gotten it yet.

        > Who here will stand up to say that they know as much (or
        > even a fraction as much) about language (Germanic and English
        > in particular)?

        > Certainly Tolkien is the only authority on what Elvish is
        > and should be.

        > Shall we then, in trying to sift through the various words
        > and devices of Quenya and Sindarin in order to pick a set
        > which Tolkien would have set out together, ruthlessly
        > eliminate all "clashes"?

        > The evidence is that we don't understand Tolkien well enough
        > yet to begin that purge.
      • Petri Tikka
        Hullo, I must say that I am rather stunned that posts like this one by my namesake are banned in Elfling. It seems that there is little room there for trying
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 17, 2008
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          Hullo,

          I must say that I am rather stunned that posts like this one by my
          namesake are banned in Elfling. It seems that there is little room
          there for trying to establish simple agreement. The point of this
          post was not to flame or insult, nor did it include such: it was to
          show that both sides agreed on one matter. Whatever disagreement
          there may be, there are no sides in this supposed conflict that think
          that Neo-Elvish should not be used.

          For my part, I want to maintain peace and stick to facts (or my
          interpretations of them). There are too many far more real conflicts
          in the world to propagate imaginary or minor disputes in such a small
          community as we *_Lambendili_ are. Things would be easier, if we
          could all remember that we share a very special kind of bond. We all
          love the languages of Tolkien. And this enthusiasm, my friends, is
          indeed very rare.

          Nai Eru le mánata,

          Petri Tikka
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